The VAT Conundrum!!??

[Dougal]

After years of keeping my boat in France, we're hoping to make Spain next year.

The boat is a 1979 Beneteau Evasion32 Motor Sailor.

I bought the boat as a French registered vessel about 9 years ago, de-registered in France and added to SSR UK.

The ONLY paperwork I have is the French bill of sale for MY purchase, and have no means what so ever of finding any additional paperwork, proving that tax was paid.

Should I be concerned if sailing in Spanish waters?

 

[macd]

I expect that someone (Tranona?) will be along in a while to tell you that for a boat to be accepted on the French register proof of VAT payment must first be produced. In other words, registration is itself proof of VAT payment. So you may need to source evidence of its former registration from the French authorities. I trust something a little more authoritative will follow.

However, for a 1979 boat, all you need is proof of its age, and evidence of its whereabouts (in the EU) on 31 December 1992. Given that, the boat would be 'deemed VAT-paid by virtue of age'.

But for a boat so old and of such modest value, I seriously doubt anyone would give a fig, anyway. In 15 years stooging around Europe on older boats, I've been asked for evidence of VAT status just once: in the Scillies.

 

[Tranona]

As macd says, nothing to worry about. Pre 1986 boats only need to show that they were in the EU in 1992 - not that anybody is in the least bit bothered about it. Just ensure you have evidence that you bought the boat in France - the contract, bill of Sale if you had one and the deregistration document.

 

[KAPTAN]

Re The VAT Conundrum
Does a yacht which is listed by a brokerage as TAX PAID lose its TAX STATUS if sold in the Canaries?
I.E. Despite being part of SPAIN are the CANARIES in the EU?

 

[Tranona]

Re The VAT Conundrum
Does a yacht which is listed by a brokerage as TAX PAID lose its TAX STATUS if sold in the Canaries?
I.E. Despite being part of SPAIN are the CANARIES in the EU?

Yes. The Canaries is not in the EU VAT area.

 

[jfm]

Re The VAT Conundrum
Does a yacht which is listed by a brokerage as TAX PAID lose its TAX STATUS if sold in the Canaries?
I.E. Despite being part of SPAIN are the CANARIES in the EU?

Yes, it loses its VAT paid status if ownership is transferred when physically in the Canaries. The Canaries are not part of the EU VAT area, despite being part of spain.

 

[Dougal]

Ok I guess we're fine then. I have what the French call (i think) de matriculation proof, and the bill of sale from a private seller. The only thing I couln't prove, is the boats whereabouts in 1992.

As macd says, nothing to worry about. Pre 1986 boats only need to show that they were in the EU in 1992 - not that anybody is in the least bit bothered about it. Just ensure you have evidence that you bought the boat in France - the contract, bill of Sale if you had one and the deregistration document.

 

[Tranona]

Nobody is ever going to ask. Unreasonable to expect to keep evidence from more than 20 years go when at the time nobody expected to have to!. Your trail of previous ownership and de matriculation is more than enough!

Like many EU edicts the VAT harmonisation in 1992 imposed all sorts of impractical conditions inevitable when stitching together 13 different sets of state rules and tax regulations. All sort of works, though! Expect the Brexit deal will be similarly opaque in some respects and we will learn to live with it.

 

[macd]

Unreasonable to expect to keep evidence from more than 20 years ago...

Not least because, if I remember right from my VAT-registered days, even a €multi-billion company can legally chuck all it's VAT-related paperwork in a skip after seven years. VAT isn't totally joined-up, for the reasons Tranona states, but exchequers love it because it's very cheap and efficient to collect. (Notwithstanding The Great Jaffa Cake Dispute, and others like it. Even AP Herbert would have baulked at making some of it up.)

 

[Tranona]

Not least because, if I remember right from my VAT-registered days, even a €multi-billion company can legally chuck all it's VAT-related paperwork in a skip after seven years. VAT isn't totally joined-up, for the reasons Tranona states, but exchequers love it because it's very cheap and efficient to collect. (Notwithstanding The Great Jaffa Cake Dispute, and others like it. Even AP Herbert would have baulked at making some of it up.)

the need to prove that a boat was in the EU on the qualifying date was part of the transition arrangements where boats more than 8 years old were deemed VAT paid. This did not mean that they had to actually have VAT paid as it was possible prior to 1985 to have boats that had never paid VAT (like my 1963 boat) as it only came in from 1973 in the UK and later in other states.

The 8 year rule is part of all the subsequent transition arrangements and the process for establishing the status varied enormously from state to state. For example HMRC for a period would give an opinion based on presentation of evidence until they realised that "status" is not permanent and can change, for example if the boat subsequently leaves the EU. In the recent accession of Croatia there was a much more formal process to claim the status.

For the reasons you state I doubt the basic VAT regime will change - it will be the relationship with the EU that will be under discussion. I can see the UK remaining in the EU VAT area as one possibility - remember there is no serious leaving of the EU to guide as to what is possible. However you can be sure that whatever is agreed it is unlikely to cover all eventualities other than at the level of principle, leaving scope for interpretation.

 

[BrianH]

Nobody is ever going to ask. Unreasonable to expect to keep evidence from more than 20 years go when at the time nobody expected to have to!. Your trail of previous ownership and de matriculation is more than enough!

Like many EU edicts the VAT harmonisation in 1992 imposed all sorts of impractical conditions inevitable when stitching together 13 different sets of state rules and tax regulations. All sort of works, though! Expect the Brexit deal will be similarly opaque in some respects and we will learn to live with it.

"Nobody is ever going to ask." Hmm, I would not put it past the Croatian authorities, in their first flush of accession, to have done so, if the horror stories circulating in my Italian Adriatic marina were anything to go by. However, from my own experience and asking a wide selection of skippers who have visited this year, none have been approached by Croatian customs for VAT verification.

Buying my boat built in 1981 with builder's certificate from a Dutchman who had no record of where it was in 1992, I got him to add a rider to the Bill of Sale to state that it was berthed in its marina in Stavenisse, province of Zeeland, on that date, and had it notarized. It was still a nervous moment when entering Croatia for the first time after it became an EU member in 2013, because of the proclamation by the Croatian ministry of marine issued to all Italian Adriatic ports, about the necessity of a T2L document for visiting yachts, which I didn't have.

 

[macd]

I'm well aware of the issues in Croatia, Barnac1e, and I'm sure Tranona is, too. Had the OP suggested he might be going there, rather than Spain, the advice would have been different.

 

[BrianH]

I'm well aware of the issues in Croatia, Barnac1e, and I'm sure Tranona is, too. Had the OP suggested he might be going there, rather than Spain, the advice would have been different.

This is the Internet, digression is what fuels a form, opens up some interesting points sometimes for those who may not already know, unlike you wise ones.

 

[macd]

No problem, Barnac1e. My intention wasn't to be critical, as I'm sure yours wasn't.

 

[BrianH]

No problem, Barnac1e. My intention wasn't to be critical, as I'm sure yours wasn't.

Of course not! My point was somewhat historical by commenting on 'nobody asking', because of my own concerns that now seem no longer the case but once were very real and how I tried to mitigate them. You were right to indicate the irrelevance of my pedantry, which may have raised unnecessary concerns.

 

[Dougal]

Indeed.... I have no intentions of going anywhere near Croatia. At least not unless my GPS behaves even worse than usual;-) Not even Portugal. Just the north coast of Spain.
I'm no doubt in MUCH more danger from having no waste holding tanks, than needing to prove VAT status!

 

[colind3782]

I'm no doubt in MUCH more danger from having no waste holding tanks, than needing to prove VAT status!

Put a small Portapotti on the boat. That's what we and many Spaniards do.

 

[Dougal]

I wish we had the room. Short of ripping out the sea toilet.....
May try one of those little tanks that sort of wraps under the bowl.

Put a small Portapotti on the boat. That's what we and many Spaniards do.

 

[Tranona]

I wish we had the room. Short of ripping out the sea toilet.....
May try one of those little tanks that sort of wraps under the bowl.

Don't waste your money. Difficult to seal and very limited capacity.

 

[Dougal]

Well, I could say, 'Oh poo!' But I wont;-)

Don't waste your money. Difficult to seal and very limited capacity.