The sublime and the ridiculous - boatshow

[Quandary]

In 2007 I bought a new Finngulf 33, she was all we needed for two people, easy to handle and berth, fast as most 40's. Had all the prestige that any poser could need. Waiting time was almost a year so plenty of orders. 2008 saw enormous inflation in boat prices and Finngulf had introduced a 42 so expensive that the first Uk import did not sell and the importer went bust followed not much later by the builders. I am convinced that the diversion of effort to the larger boat combined with the financial fallout from 2008 killed the company.

(JB In 1976 we bought a 26' Trapper 300 new for £5k, it was supposed to be a kit but had everything except a cooker, winches, sails and curtains. A Scampi at that time might have been about £10k?)

 

[Gary Fox]

There is another reason for new. To enjoy modern technology. Huge progress has been made in hull design, in lightening structures and in improving performance over the last two decades. If you chose carefully you can get a much better boat now than was ever available before.

You must be joking! I have no intention to kick off any tribal conflict, but my old gaffer is faster and more seakindly than 90% of modern airfix kit bermudans of simiilar size. Facts are facts.

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

Ref the French question .... Most boats in France seem to be leased, along with cars, houses and probably anything else they can lease. The banks own the boats and if you go to buy a second hand boat they'll ask if you want take on the lease. I've only bought one brand new boat in France (+ 4 others) and they offered me a massive discount if I leased it from a bank! Not for me though.

 

[lustyd]

Well, I bought a 36' boat that's 20 years old and have spent more on new rope than I sold my old boat for, and more on new electronics than I bought my car for. I was luckly that the sails and standing rig were new, otherwise I'd be fast approaching the cost of a new boat.

As a general rule boat value remains static in pure number terms. My old boat sold for roughly what I bought it for last year (I could have got more in hindsight!), which is what it was bought for new in 1969. This is probably the first year that boats have appreciated in value that I can remember, and I even know some people who have made profit on cars after several years ownership this year which is absurd and a good indicator of the inflation we're going through that some have yet to acknowledge. I'd say new boat costs right now will look very cheap in 2 years time when those placing orders start to receive them.

 

[geem]

You must be joking! I have no intention to kick off any tribal conflict, but my old gaffer is faster and more seakindly than 90% of modern airfix kit bermudans of simiilar size. Facts are facts.

He's talking about foiling IMOCA 60s,
America's cup foilers with no keel. You know those everyday improvements we see in new cruising boats?

 

[doug748]

Interesting some on mentioned a new 31 foot boat coat 130,000. that would be worth around 16,000 in 1975.
Anyone know how much 31 foot new boats were in 1975?

I have some figures from 1978.

The Bank of England inflation calculator gives £130,000 as roughly £22,000 back then.

A Nicholson 32 was £24,500 , Westerly Pentland 31 would be £18,000, Sadler 32 £19, 000. Then, as now, some headline figures excluded useful "extras" to give attractive figures for perspective buyers, though I think the above prices were pretty comprehensive.

.

 

[Concerto]

Consider this. You see the Teslas and Polestars in the VIP parking area at the show from those who can show they are doing their bit to save our planet. Then they go and buy one of the massive gas guzzling motorboats! ???????? They never consider a sailing boat as it cannot be used to a timetable of getting from A to B.

 

[dgadee]

Ref the French question .... Most boats in France seem to be leased, along with cars, houses and probably anything else they can lease. The banks own the boats and if you go to buy a second hand boat they'll ask if you want take on the lease. I've only bought one brand new boat in France (+ 4 others) and they offered me a massive discount if I leased it from a bank! Not for me though.

Yes, the old presbyterian Scot in me would stop me taking that approach. But - on the other hand - French sailors are younger than the old and lame sailors you see around the UK.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

There is another reason for new. To enjoy modern technology. Huge progress has been made in hull design, in lightening structures and in improving performance over the last two decades. If you chose carefully you can get a much better boat now than was ever available before.

I agree that modern be developments offer greater advantages than in the past. A lot of this can also be leveraged by boat renovators making many old boats far better than they otherwise would.

The obvious examples are in sail material, lighting LEDs and plug and play instruments. Less obvious is stuff like elastomers, finishings, material choices and equipment options that have superseded original equipment and rigging materials.

 

[dgadee]

I agree that modern be developments offer greater advantages than in the past. A lot of this can also be leveraged by boat renovators making many old boats far better than they otherwise would.

The obvious examples are in sail material, lighting LEDs and plug and play instruments. Less obvious is stuff like elastomers, finishings, material choices and equipment options that have superseded original equipment and rigging materials.

The weakest part of refitting projects is the lack of possibility of installing rear cabins, perhaps?

 

[flaming]

You must be joking! I have no intention to kick off any tribal conflict, but my old gaffer is faster and more seakindly than 90% of modern airfix kit bermudans of simiilar size. Facts are facts.

Your gaffer must be the exception then. Year after year the gaffers in the round the island race record significantly slower times than similar sized modern cruising boats in the ISC classes. The iRC racers are of course still further ahead.

Just for example, in the 2016 RTI (which I picked because it had a good breeze so wasn't a light wind lottery like some of the recent ones) The fastest Gaffer was Thalia. Google tells me she is 45 feet. She took 10 hours and 35 minutes to complete the course.

If you then look at the ISC (Cruising) classes, you see that almost no boats, of any size, were slower. A Dufour 40 came second in ISC group 4. (I'm ignoring the winner, as it was a Mumm36, so I have no idea what it was doing in the cruising class) Its elapsed time was 7 hours and 17 minutes.

In that group of similar sized cruising boats, the first 121 boats recorded times faster than the fastest gaffer. 1 boat, just 1, was slower.

In the slowest ISC group, group 8. the first 36 boats were all faster. And mostly by hours. The 37th boat was a twister... That class was won by an Oceanis 31. Which had a time of 7 hours 56.

But sure, modern boats are slower...

 

[Tranona]

I retired at 50. I could afford a new boat but there was nothing on the new boat market that appealed to me.
We purchased an old boat that was a closer match for our needs and refurbished it. To some people, refitting a boat would be their worse nightmare. To me it was a great project. We know every inch of the boat. It didn't stop us sailing in the UK summer as we completed the larger refurbishment projects in the winter. After two seasons I retired fully and sailed across the Atlantic. Been having a blast on my old boat ever since and now done 28500nm on her. Looking back, we wouldn't do it any differently.

I bought my first "big" new at age 55. Could have easily afforded an older boat but chose not to because I could not find anything that suited my intended use. Looking back would not have done anything differently.

What does that prove? absolutely nothing except that different people make different choices for rational reasons.

 

[johnalison]

I have some figures from 1978.

The Bank of England inflation calculator gives £130,000 as roughly £22,000 back then.

A Nicholson 32 was £24,500 , Westerly Pentland 31 would be £18,000, Sadler 32 £19, 000. Then, as now, some headline figures excluded useful "extras" to give attractive figures for perspective buyers, though I think the above prices were pretty comprehensive.

.

Inflation was a major issue in the early '70s. When we bought our 22' Cirrus in '71 it cost +/- £2300. At the time 26' Centaurs were about £4500 and 30' Longbows around £6000. Our 26' Mystere was, I think, <£5000 in '73, so a 31' boat in the mid-'70s would have been perhaps around £10,000.

 

[dom]

Your gaffer must be the exception then. Year after year the gaffers in the round the island race record significantly slower times than similar sized modern cruising boats in the ISC classes. The iRC racers are of course still further ahead.

Just for example, in the 2016 RTI (which I picked because it had a good breeze so wasn't a light wind lottery like some of the recent ones) The fastest Gaffer was Thalia. Google tells me she is 45 feet. She took 10 hours and 35 minutes to complete the course.

If you then look at the ISC (Cruising) classes, you see that almost no boats, of any size, were slower. A Dufour 40 came second in ISC group 4. (I'm ignoring the winner, as it was a Mumm36, so I have no idea what it was doing in the cruising class) Its elapsed time was 7 hours and 17 minutes.

In that group of similar sized cruising boats, the first 121 boats recorded times faster than the fastest gaffer. 1 boat, just 1, was slower.

In the slowest ISC group, group 8. the first 36 boats were all faster. And mostly by hours. The 37th boat was a twister... That class was won by an Oceanis 31. Which had a time of 7 hours 56.

But sure, modern boats are slower...

I see what you have done there: missed out the super-IMOCAs. The Westerlys, Trintellas, and the iconic Anderson 22

A22 completed the RoI course in 59 minutes flat in 2016.

Alas, too fast for the Committee boat to read its number.
?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The weakest part of refitting projects is the lack of possibility of installing rear cabins, perhaps?

Plenty of sub 40’ boats from the 80’s needing refit that have aft cabins and can benefit from current new developments. Not sure what point your sarcasm is making.

 

[lustyd]

Let's not forget that a 2021 31' boat is the same "size" as a 2000 34' boat so can't really compare apples to apples.

 

[lustyd]

The prices were stupid - a Bendytoy 310 was £130k !!

OK I've had a look and can't find anything matching that description. What specifically was the boat?

 

[alahol2]

I have some figures from 1978.
The Bank of England inflation calculator gives £130,000 as roughly £22,000 back then.
A Nicholson 32 was £24,500 , Westerly Pentland 31 would be £18,000, Sadler 32 £19, 000. Then, as now, some headline figures excluded useful "extras" to give attractive figures for perspective buyers, though I think the above prices were pretty comprehensive.

Our Stag 28, originally bought in 1978 (not by us), cost around £16,000. Production stopped shortly afterwards because the costs were too high and the company was unable to compete with the likes of Westerly on selling price.
The re-sale price of the boat has remained around the same (actual) price until fairly recently. It is now considered too small as a starter boat and the price has suffered in consequence.

 

[geem]

The weakest part of refitting projects is the lack of possibility of installing rear cabins, perhaps?
[/QUOTE]
Not if you already have one?

 

[Tranona]

OK I've had a look and can't find anything matching that description. What specifically was the boat?

That is the latest Beneteau 30.1 New Beneteau Oceanis 30.1 for Sale | Ancasta

Just under £109k in basic form, snow boat was loaded with more "extras" and typical of what punters actually pay.