dgadee
Well-Known Member
Have you re-engined recently? Refitted?
The sublime and the ridiculous - boatshow
- Thread starter Birdseye
- Start date
Have you re-engined recently? Refitted?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You are right it is very difficult at times to make sensible comparisons just based on notional sizes. Better to try and compare by what similar buyers might consider at different times (ignoring the fact that 40 years ago, say people had generally lower expectations as to size of boat, so typical 1980s cruiser might be a Westerly Griffon, 21st century, Bavaria 34).
The comparison I suggest is valid is to look at volume/displacement and capability in terms of cruising style and accommodation. I have picked 1983 as base, partly because i have Bristows book of yachts for that year and partly because that was the start of a period of stable prices after the inflation of the 70s. The two boats chosen are Westerly Discus and Moody 33S for comparison with my Bav 33
Boat 1983 2015 2021
Discus £29k £88k £100k
Moody 33S £24k £76k £85k
Bav 33/4 £100k £135k
A major problem with such comparisons is that modern boats have a whole range of gear that was simply not available in earlier years. The Bav prices include fridge, full set of electronics and autopilot, in mast furling, shorepower, pressurised water, holding tank electric windlass etc which might typically add 25-30% to the 1983 prices.
Just to add a bit of information a 2006 Bav 33 was about £75k , or £100k in 2015 and £113k in 2020. This suggests prices were very stable during the 2000s until about 3 years ago.
Pleased I bought when I did!
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
This is what has happened to the smaller Rivals, some selling for as low as £5k with at least one that went for less. Any basic comparison with a modern 30 odd foot boat shows them to be very basic and cramped. I can see a time where a lot of smaller boats will become unsellable. Likely more to do with function than size though.
An overheard a comment from a Principle of a sailing school, the gist of which was that clients don't want to share sleeping space with strangers. It is a reflection of what is demanded and one reason why designers go for volume and separate sleeping spaces on smaller boats. The new Hanse 315, being a great example with double bed aft cabin.
Hanse 315 | Great standards. Compact design.
alahol2
Well-Known Member
Re-engined in 2005 with a Beta 13.5 a couple of years after we bought the boat. A 'rolling refit' has been underway since we bought. The boat has never required major work, more a case of replacing elderly fittings, wiring and equipment. Our needs are modest so basic instrumentation etc suffice.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
…… and these opinions aren’t “facts” but “prejudices”
But glad you enjoy your boat, each to their own
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Argualby you could go even further and suggest that in real terms boat prices have dropped. Looking at the Discus as an example it has nothing like the accomodation of the Beneteau 30.1 mentioned above and neither does the Moody 33s. They'd be more akin to a ~28 footer or less these days which, if available, would be far cheaper than £100k. Realistically the reason they probably don't exist is the lack of a market. If someone were comparing a 33' old boat to a 28' new boat they may well be drawn to the "bigger" old boat if it looked cheaper on paper. Add in some new sails, rigging, electronics and the new boat would certainly be cheaper if available.
Looking at the modern mid 30's cruisers you may have to compare with older mid 40's cruisers for a good comparison.
Needless to say, all of this starts with an assumption that someone has unlimited budget and wants new sails and electronics
Looking at the modern mid 30's cruisers you may have to compare with older mid 40's cruisers for a good comparison.
Needless to say, all of this starts with an assumption that someone has unlimited budget and wants new sails and electronics
Bouba
Well-Known Member
Sailing is a different skill set. If you don’t know how to sail then no point in buying one
Zing
Well-Known Member
I’m not talking about impractical features or the merits of heavy cruisers in a gale, which I agree is hard to beat. There are a heap of desirable modern innovations I have in mind. Modern hull shapes give wide beam, high stability, lower ballast, longer waterline and lower wetted area all to give dramatically better performance, particularly at the lower wind speeds and upwind, yet they retain good motion comfort when needed. Modern materials such as pre-preg or carbon or even s-glass sandwich constructions give significant up to dramatic weight reductions with improved stiffness and strength. For the internal construction, foam cored or carbon laminates are used instead of heaps of plywood saving tons of performance and stability robbing weight. Keel foil designs have improved, ditto rudders, particularly with the widespread use of twin rudders.The common use of carbon spars at what is now affordable cost increments over alu, dropping the centre of gravity, improving stability and reducing pitching motion. Modern quiet, efficient common rail motors, hugely superior modern equipment such as autopilots, more efficient, quieter air con etc and the list goes on and on.
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Birdseye
Well-Known Member
And certainly before it goes to the govt as IHT - why let them p155 it up the wall when you can do it yourself? Or your kids do it for you? Trouble is by the time you realise you have got to an age when you need to think of this, you have usually got to an age when you cant use it anyway. And the saving habit dies hard.
Got to the point where SWMBO wants me to finance 4 grandsons through private school using the argument that it costs 40% less than the sticker price because thats the IHT you no longer pay.
FWB
N/A
He wasn’t talking about speed.
Boats used to be boats first, caravans second. It’s the other way around now.
Birdseye
Well-Known Member
Chatting to a boat show salesman many years back he told me of the tale of the child who got caught short when being dragged round and mum told him to use the toilet of the boat they were on - she assumed it would just flush but it wasnt afloat. The sales guy got the kob of solving the issue so he took a bucket of water on board and had a colleague lie under the boat with another bucket to catch the result. Yes you guessed right - he laid under the wrong sea cock
flaming
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure he was....
On that I mostly agree. But I think that is less to do with the shape, and more to do with the prioritising of relaxing rather than sail handling when it comes to cockpit layout.
Gary Fox
N/A
Spot on Flaming
Few gaff or lugger etc skippers strip their boats for lightness and race round the cans with competitive crews, and Old Gaffer Association races are one of the few competitive events where you can cross the starting line puffing a pipe, and glugging a warm bottle of Theakston's Old Peculiar Ale.
My Marihøna has historically placed very well in OGA races, and I have bought some new headsails but she's usually full of gear and general tat because I mainly live aboard.
Zing
Well-Known Member
If your grandkids deserve it more than you is a tough one. Let me think about that for a while.
The IHT discount shouldn't apply as you shouldn't be paying IHT anyway. Either spend it or give it away, or take out life assurance, or put it in trust (a bit) or IHT protected asset etc etc.
westernman
Well-Known Member
The leasing scheme for boats in France (doesn't Italy have something similar?) is a fully legal way to avoid paying a substantial part of the VAT on a new boat.
Gary Fox
N/A
Very true.
doug748
Well-Known Member
Indeed, there are many new boats that have all these things but they tend to be exotic, expensive, often highly strung and repay having a large and skilled crew. How many people here have one of the newer French very fast cruisers? How many could actually sail one to great effect or put up with the accommodations below deck?
Most people's modern cruising boat is knocked up out of GRP, balsa, plywood, stainless steel and Formica, as they were in times of yore. It has no carbon fibre laminate, no carbon fibre mast, no common rail engine, no air conditioning. It is not capable of any outstanding speeds. It has no great ultimate stability a large, heavy hull, high wetted area, large windage and low ballast; that's your modern cruising boat.
They are excellent at what they do, I love a quarter cabin, but lets not get giddy.
.
Minerva
Well-Known Member
I would agree with that - I'm late thirties and grew up on smaller boats and still often admire Nic 32's, S&S34's Rival 32 etc.
However the only reason I could sell sailing to my wife as it's like having a holiday cottage on the water (that sails well) with a good view and away from midges. Therefore it has to have a good sized double bed in a comfortable (separate) cabin. There has to be a decent sized galley so we can cook actual food instead of eating out of tins etc and the ability to live in comfort on holiday on the hook.
Frankly sod squeezing 6 guys into a small cabin on pipe cots for a week away!
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Mrs Morris insists we do the same! If we didn't hang onto our boats for years, I would be taking out shares in Jabsco toilets.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
100% this. Modern sailors take their partners with them. I got sign off based on (bigger than) kingsize bed, WiFi, hot showers, 4 ring stove, grill and oven, central heating and a clean bilge. It sails very well too, but she didn't care about that.
