The RYA, yes, no, maybe, but - their recent comments on Pyrotechnics

[graham]

Anyone who thinks flares cannot explode should have a chat with this man

Man injured by exploding flare 'stable' - Practical Boat Owner

It emerged later that the flares used were in date white para lumes from a well respected manufacturer. I heard he only survived because one of the students was a paramedic.

 

[dunedin]

With all the gear that ships carry - they still have SOLAS saying Pyros to be carried.

That's good enough for me.

Lots of stuff ships have to carry that may or may not be relevant to yachts.

But do you have any EPIRB / PLB? MOB AIS beacon? Etc
These would be - and indeed are - ahead of more pyrotechnics on my investment priorities.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Sailing is dangerous. If you don’t know what your doing or the boat has been built wrongly, you can die. If that bothers you stay at home. On balance I will keep my flares. I know how to use them, they are in date. I think the probability of one injuring or killing me is negligible.

 

[RAI]

My 2 cents.
I was able to officially let off all my out of date flares in Lagos. The old ones mostly failed, not the powder but the fuses failed.
One hand for you, one for the boat. I found I needed two hands to ignite my flares. Great in a heavy sea. With the hand held ones, I had to hang on until they burnt out. In an emergency, I might need that time bailing, or something. If I dropped a burning flare, ouch! Even burnt out, it needs to go over the side before I get a hand back.
So I would rather carry smoke and laser flares and rely on GMDSS for the long range stuff.

 

[capnsensible]

Anyone who thinks flares cannot explode should have a chat with this man

Man injured by exploding flare 'stable' - Practical Boat Owner

It emerged later that the flares used were in date white para lumes from a well respected manufacturer. I heard he only survived because one of the students was a paramedic.

A bad incident. Im very sorry for the guy....it could easily have been me. But how many other times has that happened?

I used to run commercial vessels in Gib for many years. Annually, the local MOD would notify all operators that they could hand in expired pyros. Big numbers not just from the service launches, tourists boats and sailing schools but plenty from the lifesaving equipment service agents that deal with shipping. So it really is big numbers.

These would then be expended on the South Mole by service personnel for training. Not one failure ever.

As someone who goes to sea for a living I'll take them thar odds. And its all I might have in a liferaft.....

Oh, top tip. If you decide that you need to expend pyros in early Junein coastal Spain around the time of Virgen Del Carmen (Patron Saint of the Sea) wait until the fishermen have set off their several hundreds celebrating.

 

[boomerangben]

Generally you can see “wind lanes” on the water and that gives the best indication of wind in all but very light conditions so finding the wind at sea from a helicopter is not too difficult by day at least.
I would suggest that pyros are really useful for raising the alarm in busy areas where your rescue might be effected by a fellow sea farer more quickly than the RNLI/Coastguard, although radio is good too. But passing lat and long over radio is slow compared with “look that boat over there has just fired a red flare!”
Further afield flares IMHO are less appropriate for raising alarm but still really good for the last mile. Lifeboats and helicopters will of course have your lat and long in their nav system but they will be eyes out looking once they get close. Some coloured LEDs are invisible to night vision goggles so I am not convinced an LED flare is effective at alerting helicopter crews so equipped. Hopefully the manufacturers of LED flares have tested them and my fears are unfounded.
White strobes (certainly non LED ones) are effective butare not a recognised distress signal (But I guess will get you found non the less - I hope so cos that’s what I carry when I’m sailing) when I’m working my lifejacket has a day/night and PLB. If I did more sailing, that’s what I’d have.

 

[[70521]]

Anyone who thinks flares cannot explode should have a chat with this man

Man injured by exploding flare 'stable' - Practical Boat Owner

It emerged later that the flares used were in date white para lumes from a well respected manufacturer. I heard he only survived because one of the students was a paramedic.

Duncan Wells is a very nice man and well known instructor, I had a very long chat with him at the Southampton Boat Show in 2018 There is a YouTube video about his accident with the flares, that I can't find at the moment.

I don't agree that this was an explosion, to be honest they would have been picking bits of him up over a 500m area had it been (sorry Duncan if you are reading this), but more of a malfunction and a VERY HOT chemical burn.

Duncan was too busy to chat at the Southampton Boat Show 2019, he was chucking people in the water, demonstrating his MOB Lifesavers (which reminds me I need to order three).

 

[LittleSister]

I would suggest that pyros are really useful for raising the alarm in busy areas where your rescue might be effected by a fellow sea farer more quickly than the RNLI/Coastguard,

This.

(And even in not so busy areas if there are any other craft about.)

 

[Refueler]

I will submit this :

How many people have Pyros saved ?

Even landlubbers know what a red flare or para is ..

 

[Daydream believer]

Years ago, I had a pack of miniflares for use when dinghy sailing. Fitted into the pocket on my buoyancy aid and gave me half a dozen little flares which ejected upwards and burned for several seconds. Not as powerful as a conventional hand held, but easy to carry and visible over relatively short distances. Then they seemed to vanish from chandlers' shelves. Have now re-appeared.
I will probably have a PLB and maybe a hand held VHF, but am contemplating getting some miniflares as well. Worth the fairly modest expense?

I have carried miniflares & a PLB for about 16 years now. The flares cost about £ 40 to replace every 3 years. Does not take up much room in the pouch on my LJ & another aid if I need it. 8 years ago I was asked by an RNLI life boat to pinpoint my position at night using a flare. Considering the wave height I doubt that they would have seen a laser for long, as we were both in the troughs a lot of the time. I certainly could not see the lifeboat in the troughs a couple of waves away & could only identify it by its bright lights shining upwards. I also doubt my ability to hold a laser upright, as I could hardly hold on in the cockpit with both hands. Let alone hold one up in the air. I was having to kneel on the cockpit floor.
I think that one has to consider the practicalities of actually using it when being rolled about in a violent sea.

 

[Refueler]

There are times for one and times for another ... they ALL have their place.

It is noticeable that there are posts here 'knocking' pyros .... but literally none knocking modern 'electronic' means .. but EACH has its limitations and advantages.

I illustrated earlier that a flare burns whatever happens ... you can be half submerged in water ... up to your proverbial in crap - pull that ring / twist that base / strike the cap and the flare will work.

Call me old fashioned - but I trust that flare more than some of those new items in the sh** situation.

Why its necessary to defend a proven safety item is beyond me ...

 

[Graham376]

I'd say it was useful to have an indication of wind direction if there isn't anything on sight to indicate it.

Heading in to wind gives additional lift without using more power, , I'm not.good at explaining which is why I never became an instructor but airflow from wind increases lift with out more power being required due to air flow over the rotors or wings that doesn't require engine force.W.

All my experience is with fixed wing, Over land in daylight, wind direction is fairly easy to see by watching smoke, effect on trees bushes, long grass etc. as well as speed over ground. A mate who instructs on helicopters told me (IIRC) they are unstable at low speed and hover so best to keep nose into wind which gives it some forward speed through the air whilst stationary over the ground.

 

[Stemar]

Stemar, If you're in a flubber that looks like it will blow away or in other stationary situations, they'll put a man in the water, put you in the water and take you up on the line out of the water.

That makes sense. Thanks

 

[JumbleDuck]

Anyone who thinks flares cannot explode should have a chat with this man

Man injured by exploding flare 'stable' - Practical Boat Owner

Indeed. The victim in that case was (maybe still is) a forum user and posted about his injuries here. Horrifying.

That said ... who has claimed that flares cannot explode? And apart from that one, how many others have exploded?

 

[Graham376]

The risk is negligible for the vast majority who will never use one and for those who do, maybe one in a thousand is faulty. Far more likely to lose fingers in the windlass or be maimed by the boom, which most don't see as a particular risk.

 

[siwhi]

I think if you sail in coastal waters there is little need for flares as other means of attracting attention are many and capable. I am also mindful of what happened to Duncan Wells and feel that on balance they are more of a liability than an asset in this context.

I used to think the same applied for offshore too, and didn't have them on the boat. However I have come across a couple of scenarios where they could have been helpful. One was last year with a boat off Niue which had rudder problems in big seas and began to flood from a failed rudder stock seal. After some time spent trying to sort the problem the battle to save her was being lost and flooding continued til power was cut. In big swell there was little chance of deck level lights being seen at night, and by day there was no real way of knowing the boat had a problem (other than it's speed). The handheld VHF had such a low range, that it was not exactly likely to be useful in an ocean. EPIRBs and PLBs were activated, but again, not much immediate use in that situation when the nearest ship is a few days away. In the end, after many hours trying to save the boat, and with the crew having deployed the liferaft and started to load it with water, grab bag, etc, completely by chance another boat did come within VHF range, and picked up the distress call, and the crew were saved (but the boat is now somewhere in the Tonga trench). Now imagine if the handheld VHF runs out of power, which it nearly did, or if the other boat didn't have the VHF on (or like me had the party tunes cranked up making VHF useless most of the time), then more or less the only thing left to attract attention would be flares (assuming of course the crew on watch are awake). While it's true that having flares didn't actually save them in this case, it's easy to see that with a slight variation to this scenario they may well have been the only option available.

Anyway, I now think having a couple of rockets may be sensible if crossing an ocean...but until the next crossing is imminent I won't be carrying them.

 

[Refueler]

The risk is negligible for the vast majority who will never use one and for those who do, maybe one in a thousand is faulty. Far more likely to lose fingers in the windlass or be maimed by the boom, which most don't see as a particular risk.

One in a thousand ??

One in a million maybe ... think how many ships and yachts out there with them ... how many football and celebratory people let them off ...

On ships I've been on .... when alone out in the ocean and with expired pyros - we've had demo firings during drills ... never had one fail or misfire that I've seen.

 

[penberth3]

Indeed. The victim in that case was (maybe still is) a forum user and posted about his injuries here. Horrifying.

That said ... who has claimed that flares cannot explode? And apart from that one, how many others have exploded?

"Deflagrate" might be a better word to describe what can happen.

 

[Beneteau381]

Have in date ones ever killed anyone and if so why are they still for sale? Just askin?

Plus of course, best of luck with using their argument with a man in a black uniform and a gun who has decided to have a bit of lucrative fun with an expat!

 

[Petertheking1982]

It is an interesting discussion. You are of course safer with as many saftey products as you can, but this could proove costly or inpractical for some. I dont have all of the official means of calling for help, as per annex IV in the col regs, but I do have a few. I think it helps to have different types with at least one independent from the ship systems, with suitable range for your cruising area. Also to have a way to communicate with boats, as well as rescue people on land and getting attention for the 'last mile'. A good skipper will consider the options available and how they would work for the types of emergency situations they may encounter, then choose accordingly. For me some times this would include flares, some times it wouldnt. Cant remember the last time I went out without a VHF though.