The RYA, yes, no, maybe, but - their recent comments on Pyrotechnics

Sandy said:
Having been a member of the Rescue Services, OK Mountain Rescue, pyrotechnics are bloody brilliant on getting us to you in that last mile.

An interesting example

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Exactly .... as I said in my post #15 ..... those guys and gals out there trying to find you - fire a flare ......

Lets give another example ... there's you all cold and wet ... low down in the water in your raft or even on your boat ... handheld in cold wet hands .... you trying to make a clear sensible call .... ship is passing some distance away .... make your VHF call .... Fire a flare after it ... preferably a parachute type .... which will show where you are ?
 
Rockets. I know of (ie have read about) 2 fatalities - one was at Cowes Week, many years ago - someone was hit by a rocket and killed. Use of pyrotechnics at Cowes Week was subsequently banned.
There was another instance, also some years ago - at a football match - someone fired a rocket which hit someone and killed him. If I remember aright, a manslaughter charge resulted.
Does anyone know of more instances?
Helicopter overhead - need to know your exact position - by all means a pinpoint red or a smoke, as appropriate - but I have seen in print (can't remember where but I think the point makes itself) a plea NOT to fire a rocket.
 
blackbeard said:
Helicopter overhead - need to know your exact position - by all means a pinpoint red or a smoke, as appropriate - but I have seen in print (can't remember where but I think the point makes itself) a plea NOT to fire a rocket.
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That was the advice of the RAF back in the day of the Paraffin Budgies. A rocket from five miles was good but no closer.

One memorable bit of advice from an RAF Mountain Rescue Team member was never stand astride a downed jet cockpit with the ejector seat in situ!
 
Refueler said:
Exactly .... as I said in my post #15 ..... those guys and gals out there trying to find you - fire a flare ......

Lets give another example ... there's you all cold and wet ... low down in the water in your raft or even on your boat ... handheld in cold wet hands .... you trying to make a clear sensible call .... ship is passing some distance away .... make your VHF call .... Fire a flare after it ... preferably a parachute type .... which will show where you are ?
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Your AIS SART will keep giving your position long after you've run out of flares.
And doesn't rely on you seeing the ship.
Your VHF might be a DSC type...
You might prefer a laser flare
You might all have PLBs

Pyrotechnics are just one of a number of choices these days.
 
lw395 said:
Obsolescent, not obsolete!

Whether you feel the need to carry flares, or require that people taking part in your races to, will vary from case to case.

I think flares are increasingly a last resort, with ever more options to exhaust first.
More boats have EPIRBs and AIS. VHF and mobile phone coverage has improved. And so on.

I don't think it's yet time to say nobody needs pyrotechnics, but I think it's fair to say less boats should be required to carry them, and more people can reasonably judge they are not worthwhile for them, where they sail their boat.
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There are numerous cases of assistance given to boats by services - when a flare has been sighted by someone onshore ... they called CG ....

It does not have to be offshore for the flare to be a saviour ....

Even Joe Blogs in the street has a pretty good idea what a red flare means when sighted out in the water ...
 
Helicopter overhead - need to know your exact position - by all means a pinpoint red or a smoke, as appropriate - but I have seen in print (can't remember where but I think the point makes itself) a plea NOT to fire a rocket.
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That was also advice given to us as cadets .... Parachute flares for distance - hand held for close in.

The other bit of advice was ... if you must use a smoke float - make sure its on the downwind side you deploy !!
 
lw395 said:
Your AIS SART will keep giving your position long after you've run out of flares.
And doesn't rely on you seeing the ship.
Your VHF might be a DSC type...
You might prefer a laser flare
You might all have PLBs

Pyrotechnics are just one of a number of choices these days.
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Fine you load up with that lot ....

Pyros have stood the test of time ... and contrary to Joe in the street ideas - you do not just fire of flares without any reason ... you combine the use of with such as VHF ...

It might be you advise CG that you will fire a parachute flare every 1 hour ... 30 mins or so ... as a marker ... all depends on what they agree with you and what you have to use.
Its not Hollywood movies where you fire all the flares and the US Navy comes over the horizon ....

I just find it incredible the anti Pyro comments !
 
lw395 said:
Your AIS SART will keep giving your position long after you've run out of flares.
And doesn't rely on you seeing the ship.
Your VHF might be a DSC type...
You might prefer a laser flare
You might all have PLBs

Pyrotechnics are just one of a number of choices these days.
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Yes there are lots of options, especially if one owns a boat.

Dunno what the percentage is, but all over the world theres a lot of people who use boats but dont own them, Friends, charter, whatever. And often they are not equipped with a lot of that.

Bottom line for me as an operator of commercial vessels for lots of years where they are mandated, and visiting many countries by sea too, it seems to me that most people are gonna encounter pyros. I cant see why properly briefed crew/ skippers knowing how to operate pyros....which are very basic.... can be a problem. And potentially a lifesaver.

What do you use on your yacht out of interest?

On my liveabord yacht I got the standard Paras, hand helds and bouyant smoke. Plus whats in the liferaft. VHF radio DSC.

Seems to be average on yachts I deliver too.
 
Sandy said:
Having been a member of the Rescue Services, OK Mountain Rescue, pyrotechnics are bloody brilliant on getting us to you in that last mile.

An interesting example

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That 'which one of those AWBs is the one we want' is where it seems to come in use in particular.
How many times on RTI do you hear 'please use a smoke / handheld red so we can find your boat'
 
capnsensible said:
Yes there are lots of options, especially if one owns a boat.

Dunno what the percentage is, but all over the world theres a lot of people who use boats but dont own them, Friends, charter, whatever. And often they are not equipped with a lot of that.

Bottom line for me as an operator of commercial vessels for lots of years where they are mandated, and visiting many countries by sea too, it seems to me that most people are gonna encounter pyros. I cant see why properly briefed crew/ skippers knowing how to operate pyros....which are very basic.... can be a problem. And potentially a lifesaver.

What do you use on your yacht out of interest?

On my liveabord yacht I got the standard Paras, hand helds and bouyant smoke. Plus whats in the liferaft. VHF radio DSC.

Seems to be average on yachts I deliver too.
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I don't disagree with any of that.
I sail on a few different boats.
The one which goes furthest offshore, it's sometimes raced, so the decisions about flares are out of our hands. Not that we strongly disagree.
We take the view that flares, EPRIBs, replacing LJs on a rota system is all just yearly budget.

I do see the point that in relative terms, flares seem to be getting more expensive, while electronics get cheaper and have longer replacement intervals.
If things were to go badly wrong, flares are increasing down the list of things I'd turn to. Half the time we have mobile phone coverage at least for 999, we have a DSC with the nice red button, we have an EPIRB. We have more than one VHF.
I don't feel strongly against flares, although they are a PITA when you need to get rid of them.

It would be interesting to ask a few lifeboat/coastguard people how many times flares have actually been useful in UK waters over the last year and if there is a real downward trend.

I think it's a debate /thought process that people might usefully engage in, rather than just tick-boxing 'RORC flare pack: Check!'.
 
Refueler said:
I just find it incredible the anti Pyro comments !
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Not sure there are strong "anti" views, rather that pyrotechnics are probably no longer the primary means of indicating distress, but may still be useful in assisting final mile location.
All assuming up to date alternatives such as DSC, AIS and EPIRB/PLB are available.

Here in Western Australia an EPIRB is mandatory but flares are still required too. This applies in any size boat going 2NM offshore or more than 400m off an island. Strangely radio operator license, whilst technically required, seems to be treated as very optional and no one seems to know anything about DSC.
 
lw395 said:
If things were to go badly wrong, flares are increasing down the list of things I'd turn to. Half the time we have mobile phone coverage at least for 999, we have a DSC with the nice red button, we have an EPIRB. We have more than one VHF.
I don't feel strongly against flares, although they are a PITA when you need to get rid of them.

It would be interesting to ask a few lifeboat/coastguard people how many times flares have actually been useful in UK waters over the last year and if there is a real downward trend.

I think it's a debate /thought process that people might usefully engage in, rather than just tick-boxing 'RORC flare pack: Check!'.
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I agree.
Where I live, flares are mandatory, so I carry them. But technological development has given us a number of very useful and accurate options to try first. As a result, pyrotechnics have moved to a sort of last line of defence, even to the point that we can now contemplate doing without them. Whether legislation will follow suit any time soon, remains to be seen.
 
capnsensible said:
Thanks, Sandy. I thought Id seen on here rescue service people commenting on how useful they are. Thats why I wondered if anyone representing them had been at the CA lecture.
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I don't know if they were at the CA event, but the SAR helicopter pilot that took the Yachtmaster course I was on said a high power white strobe was the best solution for the last few miles at sea. It's easier to see, it lasts a long time and it has no dangerous side effects.... better than pyro or LED flares. And, his key point, like other battery powered devices once activated the victim does not have to be able or conscious.

I'm only anti-pyro to the extent that if I have limited capacity in my grab bag pyro wouldn't make it and they're unnecessarily dangerous.

I might keep my flares for my next visit to a Greek football match...
 
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All those electronics can fail and yes I've get them all including VHF/DSC and PLB both tethered to my LJ which I always wear.

An LJ is useless if not worn and pyrotechnics are useless if not carried.

Smoke is useful for helicopters to figure out how best to approach you as well identify you in busy waters. Hand-held flares are good for night time identification.

Flares are good for alerting the general public when inshore and other shipping in the middle of the channel.

For the cost I'll keep some on board and handy, but they will always be a last resort.
 
SimonFa said:
…...Smoke is useful for helicopters to figure out how best to approach you as well identify you in busy waters. Hand-held flares are good for night time identification...….
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This comment often comes up. Do helicopter pilots REALLY need to be shown the wind direction, or is it something they can work out for themselves, if they have to?
 
capnsensible said:
............. I cant see why properly briefed crew/ skippers knowing how to operate pyros....which are very basic.... can be a problem. And potentially a lifesaver. ....On my liveabord yacht I got the standard Paras, hand helds and bouyant smoke. Plus whats in the liferaft. VHF radio DSC.
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Agree with all of the above. As it happens, we have to carry flares where we're based but would do so anyway as they've saved many lives over the years and are unlikely to be confused with someone playing with a laser.
 
Smoke will also give them an indication about gusts and wind strength at sea level
 
penberth3 said:
This comment often comes up. Do helicopter pilots REALLY need to be shown the wind direction, or is it something they can work out for themselves, if they have to?
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I haven't flown in too long but unless there is locally located direction indicator then I'd say yes. Hovering into wind is significantly better than trying to downwind. The additional lift is important.

W.
 
penberth3 said:
This comment often comes up. Do helicopter pilots REALLY need to be shown the wind direction, or is it something they can work out for themselves, if they have to?
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In my experience, the wind largely comes from the helicopter....
 
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