The pro's and cons of steel boat building

[Brent Swain]

Not a fair comparison. Old steel boats are invariably "cheap" - reflecting how people value them. If they suit your needs are you are happy with dealing with the downsides then clearly they are better value for you than an IP. However, not everybody values the same things, hence the availability of boats in all kinds of size, type and price range.

A steel boat would be much safer in a collision with a cargo container in the night,or an uncharted reef. Ips have such narrow side decks that getting forward in a hurry can be a challenge, and risky.
Excessive beam means a low AVS angle, and doubtful self righting ability in a rollover.
I prefer boats designed by someone with some actual offshore cruising experience, not an armchair expert, who has never been to sea for any long term cruising ( which shows up in poor detail design). For some designers, people just "Assume" they have offshore cruising experience, when, in reality, they have none.
A friend used to buy and sell old boats for a living. If one had no interest, he would double the price, and it would then sell quickly, as people judged the value and "Quality" of the boat by the price tag he put on it. Seems to work for boats like the IP, and others.

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Pink hulls!

Such a wheelhouse would never survive a rollover.
The bowsprit would never survive an anchor jammed under a rock , if you tried recover it in a swell. Probably the tip of the iceberg ,when it comes to poor detail design.

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

So what !!!!!
If somebody finds it of interest & wants to comment on previous points are you saying that they should be barred from doing so?

Right on! The questions and issues don't change over time.The sea doesn't behave any differently from 5 years ago.
Great post!
Thanks!

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Same goes for steel boats - as mentioned above - anticorrosive protection has about 20 years lifetime, after this either boat must be stripped, insides included, blasted, and all this painting made anew, or it may become a constant trouble. Either way is costly, cheaper sometimes to make new hull and transfer the equipment...
(Quote)
My steel boat is 34 years old, and no sign of any serious corrosion . Never been sandblasted ,ever. Original paint job is 95% what I put on originally, except for occasional enamel over coats. 20 years life is a plastic boat salesman's myth. Only is a problem if you get it wrong the first time. Many around here are much older than that, and still going strong, with their original paint job.
Maintenance for me is a couple of hours a year , dealing with about a half dozen doubloon sided rust spots. Any more than that, and you have definitely done things wrong. Get it right and you wont have such problems .

 

[Tranona]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

A steel boat would be much safer in a collision with a cargo container in the night,or an uncharted reef. Ips have such narrow side decks that getting forward in a hurry can be a challenge, and risky.
Excessive beam means a low AVS angle, and doubtful self righting ability in a rollover.
I prefer boats designed by someone with some actual offshore cruising experience, not an armchair expert, who has never been to sea for any long term cruising ( which shows up in poor detail design). For some designers, people just "Assume" they have offshore cruising experience, when, in reality, they have none.
A friend used to buy and sell old boats for a living. If one had no interest, he would double the price, and it would then sell quickly, as people judged the value and "Quality" of the boat by the price tag he put on it. Seems to work for boats like the IP, and others.

Is there no limit to you misunderstanding. I stand by my statements which were nothing to do with the suitability of boats for particular applications. Just reflecting what is undoubtedly true and that is steel boats are generally cheaper than boats made of other materials. There are of course many reasons for this, but it does not really matter because the only thing that determines price is what people are prepared to pay for something. It is not difficult to list all the negative points of a boat, particularly steel that underpin the low monetary value placed on them.

Are you claiming that boats not made of steel are not designed by people who have a sound understanding and extensive experience of what is required for long term cruising? or that only you are blessed with that knowledge. I suspect that most people who buy such a boat are happier buying one from such designers and builders rather than building their own to a design and construction from an amateur.

Wide beam does not necessarily result in an inability to right after a knockdown. That is determined by the GZ curve of the design - but I guess that you do not bother with such basic concepts of yacht design.

BTW this thread is about IP boats NOT about hull materials. You do yourself mo favours by using it as another opportunity to peddle your designs. Doubt anybody thinking of buying an IP would be in the least bit interested in what you have to say never mind consider one of your boats as an alternative.

 

[rotrax]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

A steel boat would be much safer in a collision with a cargo container in the night,or an uncharted reef. Ips have such narrow side decks that getting forward in a hurry can be a challenge, and risky.
Excessive beam means a low AVS angle, and doubtful self righting ability in a rollover.
I prefer boats designed by someone with some actual offshore cruising experience, not an armchair expert, who has never been to sea for any long term cruising ( which shows up in poor detail design). For some designers, people just "Assume" they have offshore cruising experience, when, in reality, they have none.
A friend used to buy and sell old boats for a living. If one had no interest, he would double the price, and it would then sell quickly, as people judged the value and "Quality" of the boat by the price tag he put on it. Seems to work for boats like the IP, and others.

Foxtrot Oscar Brent-this debate is not for you and has no steel boat content.

You are so out of order here with your derogatory remarks and stupid comments with no base in reality.

From your other posts where we have differing views it is clear that you are too impecunious to consider purchasing a late model yacht-made from any material. So, your comment here-and promotion of steel yachts-is totally out of place and irrelevant.

I think I'm getting it-if Brent Swain did not design it, its NBG!

So far this 5 year old post has had mature debate and comment relevant to the title, from contributors with open minds who are able to see differing points of view. Even if not agreeing, the contributors have often first hand experience of the subject matter, Island Packet yachts, or similar vessels from other makers.

You build your cheap steel boats in a field. You live and sail on them on a shoestring. You are an able and competant mechanic/fabricator/repairer of your boat and its systems.

That is admirable, but I fear you are flogging a dead 'un to convince many others who wish to enjoy sailing to join your one man crusade against anything other than Brent Swain design steel boats.

And you know ABSOLUTLY nothing about the subject matter of this post through direct experience.

So we are clear, that means you have never owned one, or considered buying one, or, most probably, never been aboard one.

Please correct me if I am wrong........................

PS-Your friend who used to sell old boats-he sounds like a con man!

 

[rotrax]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Such a wheelhouse would never survive a rollover.
The bowsprit would never survive an anchor jammed under a rock , if you tried recover it in a swell. Probably the tip of the iceberg ,when it comes to poor detail design.

So Brent-have you seen the technical specifications and drawings with all the stress calculations! I can assure you they exist as Bob Johnson the designer, as well as being a long time sailor and yacht designer was an areospace engineer at a high level.

Without seeing these tech specs you are only in a position to jump to delusions.



You often throw " This or that steel boat spent six days being pounded on a reef or beach! "

Well, in my view good seamanship would have kept them out of danger.

We obviously have differing views on seamanship too.............................

 

[rotrax]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Ips have such narrow side decks that getting forward in a hurry can be a challenge, and risky.

I can not let the above pass without comment. The side decks on every IP I have had anything to do with-and I am prepared to state that is vastly more than you Brent-have been wide and uncluttered. The rigging tangs are wide out on the outer part of the toerail and the genoa sheets do not obstruct the walkway. The Hoyt self tacking jib means the staysail control sheet and reefing line are well out of the way.

How wide is the access on one of your designs Brent? You must tell us because it is time for you to put up or shut up.

You cant avoid this one-you have criticised IP's for having narrow side decks.

I bet they are as wide or wider than most other sailboats with full coachroofs.

They are not as wide as the Hartley 32 in steel I keep in Wellington Harbour-that has no coachroof and is flush decked. Cant get much wider than that can you! But the Hartley is such an ugly barsteward.

Anyway, IP's are designed to be operated by a small crew with no need to go foward in normal sailing.

You do talk a load of rubbish sometimes................................................

But I expect an answer to the sidedeck width on a BS design!

 

[NormanB]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Is there no limit to you misunderstanding. I stand by my statements which were nothing to do with the suitability of boats for particular applications. Just reflecting what is undoubtedly true and that is steel boats are generally cheaper than boats made of other materials. There are of course many reasons for this, but it does not really matter because the only thing that determines price is what people are prepared to pay for something. It is not difficult to list all the negative points of a boat, particularly steel that underpin the low monetary value placed on them.

Are you claiming that boats not made of steel are not designed by people who have a sound understanding and extensive experience of what is required for long term cruising? or that only you are blessed with that knowledge. I suspect that most people who buy such a boat are happier buying one from such designers and builders rather than building their own to a design and construction from an amateur.

Wide beam does not necessarily result in an inability to right after a knockdown. That is determined by the GZ curve of the design - but I guess that you do not bother with such basic concepts of yacht design.

BTW this thread is about IP boats NOT about hull materials. You do yourself mo favours by using it as another opportunity to peddle your designs. Doubt anybody thinking of buying an IP would be in the least bit interested in what you have to say never mind consider one of your boats as an alternative.

I thought GZ was a derived value of transverse intact stability, when you are arse over tit and there is appreciable water in the boat then it is not an intact stability situation.

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Is there no limit to you misunderstanding. I stand by my statements which were nothing to do with the suitability of boats for particular applications. Just reflecting what is undoubtedly true and that is steel boats are generally cheaper than boats made of other materials. There are of course many reasons for this, but it does not really matter because the only thing that determines price is what people are prepared to pay for something. It is not difficult to list all the negative points of a boat, particularly steel that underpin the low monetary value placed on them.

Are you claiming that boats not made of steel are not designed by people who have a sound understanding and extensive experience of what is required for long term cruising? or that only you are blessed with that knowledge. I suspect that most people who buy such a boat are happier buying one from such designers and builders rather than building their own to a design and construction from an amateur.

Wide beam does not necessarily result in an inability to right after a knockdown. That is determined by the GZ curve of the design - but I guess that you do not bother with such basic concepts of yacht design.

BTW this thread is about IP boats NOT about hull materials. You do yourself mo favours by using it as another opportunity to peddle your designs. Doubt anybody thinking of buying an IP would be in the least bit interested in what you have to say never mind consider one of your boats as an alternative.

As the quote I quoted points out, it was not me who made the steel boat comparison.I just corrected misinformation on steel boats, which readers have the right know, and some would rather they didn't know. Ditto other design liabilities.

 

[rotrax]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

As the quote I quoted points out, it was not me who made the steel boat comparison.I just corrected misinformation on steel boats, which readers have the right know, and some would rather they didn't know. Ditto other design liabilities.

You did nothing of the sort. Apart from the well known fact that in the event of a collision or grounding steel is a stronger material and better able to avoid serious damage, you added nothing to the debate.

As usual you have thrown your hat into the ring and made yourself look foolish. You know little about the boats being discussed in the post as you have clearly shown in your incorrect comments on IP sidedecks.

You choose to build and sail your own build steel boats. Others choose a totally different style of boating. Whats not to like?

You keep on suggesting things which I, despite rigorous searching, can find no trace of.

Such as " GRP salesmen stating steel boats are NBG "
" Custom made and Hand made are good, but Home made is rubbish. " I have never read or been told this by a dealer, chandlery or another sailor-so where did you hear it?

The home made stuff I make for my Island Packet SP Cruiser is up to both hand made and custom made standard. It would not be on the boat if it were not. Like you, I am a skilled mechanic, fabricator and repairer.

You keep asking for a yard quote to build one of your 36 footer hulls, suggesting it will be-and quite probably is-$250,000. Then you say you can do it for $16,000. So what-we have established that the fields you build in dont have any H&S or Enviomental control, which a commercial yard will.

In your $16,000 price you dont take labour into account. Even at half the cost of yard labour it would inflate the price substantially.

You are comparing apples with potatoes.

Still waiting for your reply on the sidedeck issue.

A Gentleman would put his hand up and say:-

"Sorry fellows-I got that wrong!"

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

You did nothing of the sort. Apart from the well known fact that in the event of a collision or grounding steel is a stronger material and better able to avoid serious damage, you added nothing to the debate.

As usual you have thrown your hat into the ring and made yourself look foolish. You know little about the boats being discussed in the post as you have clearly shown in your incorrect comments on IP sidedecks.

You choose to build and sail your own build steel boats. Others choose a totally different style of boating. Whats not to like?

You keep on suggesting things which I, despite rigorous searching, can find no trace of.

Such as " GRP salesmen stating steel boats are NBG "
" Custom made and Hand made are good, but Home made is rubbish. " I have never read or been told this by a dealer, chandlery or another sailor-so where did you hear it?

The home made stuff I make for my Island Packet SP Cruiser is up to both hand made and custom made standard. It would not be on the boat if it were not. Like you, I am a skilled mechanic, fabricator and repairer.

You keep asking for a yard quote to build one of your 36 footer hulls, suggesting it will be-and quite probably is-$250,000. Then you say you can do it for $16,000. So what-we have established that the fields you build in dont have any H&S or Enviomental control, which a commercial yard will.

In your $16,000 price you dont take labour into account. Even at half the cost of yard labour it would inflate the price substantially.

You are comparing apples with potatoes.

Still waiting for your reply on the sidedeck issue.

A Gentleman would put his hand up and say:-

"Sorry fellows-I got that wrong!"

The 36 ft hull I mentioned , was built for $17 K included my labour, at $30 an hour, and $9 K for steel, plus gas welding rods , rent ,etc , all costs to that point. Methods which reduce the number of hours it takes by 90%, drastically reduce labour costs, a point you missed completely. Making people aware of this, ads important points to the debate. We agree on the point that what you build for yourself is often far better than what you can buy. It was on this and other sites that "homemade" was used as a derogative insult. It often is.
I can see from the pictures that the side decks are much narrower than they should be.
10% of the earth's crust is iron ore. So where is the "pollution" of changing it's location on that crust ,by steel fabricating?

 

[rotrax]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

The 36 ft hull I mentioned , was built for $17 K included my labour, at $30 an hour, and $9 K for steel, plus gas welding rods , rent ,etc , all costs to that point. Methods which reduce the number of hours it takes by 90%, drastically reduce labour costs, a point you missed completely. Making people aware of this, ads important points to the debate. We agree on the point that what you build for yourself is often far better than what you can buy. It was on this and other sites that "homemade" was used as a derogative insult. It often is.
I can see from the pictures that the side decks are much narrower than they should be.
10% of the earth's crust is iron ore. So where is the "pollution" of changing it's location on that crust ,by steel fabricating?

No, Brent-I missed no point completely.

You are building sailing boats from a cheap material, in a cheap location with cheap materials. As I have said many times before, that is admirable.

The point YOU miss, consistently, is that the option to go boat building and sailing in the way you do is not an option for those with a different life philosophy than yours.

You bang on-and lets be clear, you really do bang on- about steel being a better material for building yachts than GRP. Steel is cheaper than Aluminium. Shop bought blocks and accesories are a rip off. GRP salesmen dog off steel boats. Chandleries rip off sailors. You have let us know, more than enough times " I've designed, built, maintained, lived aboard and sailed steel boats for 45 years "

This has obviously left you little time to be aware of how the sailors who have a different philosophy on sailing do it. And to be aware, from direct experience, how GRP and Aluminium boats survive the rigors of sailing. Oh sorry, I forgot-GRP boats never leave the marina........................

Yes, you are correct in the statement that in the event of a collision with something hard, a boat built from steel will be stronger.

But, did we not already know that, or were unable to work it out for ourselves? Do we need to be reminded in about 70% of the posts you make?

Lets examine the " 90% less build time, drastically reducing labour costs "

Yes, in a field at 20 bucks a week with simple kit, no H&S or enviromental contol I am sure its possible.

The commercial reality is somewhat different though, is it not?

Pulling heavy bits of metal into place with non certified turfer wire rope winches would be a no-no in the UK. As would having electrical supply and welders working on an open site without abiding by the statuary requirements.

A real can of worms to do what you have achieved in a business. The costs esculate really quickly.

I never said what I build is better than what I can buy-it is often the equal visually and workmanship wise but the materials I use may not be to equal specification. Also, I hate using the polishing mop and some bits that should be shiny are perhaps not to standard.

Having virtualy made a high speed racing motorbike or two in my home workshop-and had success racing them-I like to think I know about stuff like that.

I have never seen derogatory remarks about " home made " on this site. Rather the opposite-make something good for little money and you will get a round of applause from forum members here.

But-lets get back to IP sidedecks.

After some thought, I believe you were basing your assumption about narrow sidedecks on the boat I have, the SP Cruiser. Thats the one pictued earlier in this post. The sidedecks are a little narrower on this model due to the huge wheelhouse. But, using the safty rail and the handhold on the coachroof it is so easy and safe for me to move to the front of the boat. Other model IP's have REALLY wide sidedecks, as owners have let you know.

It does not sound as if you are going to accept that you were wrong with your comments, but you were.

 

[rostyvyg]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Just wondering if we could ask moderators to move all posts on virtue of steel boats from this thread into some new thread and have them discussed there. I am sure they are worth discussing, it is my opinion, though, that they have very limited relevance to the topic of value of Island Packets vs other (overwhelmingly GRP) boats.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Just wondering if we could ask moderators to move all posts on virtue of steel boats from this thread into some new thread and have them discussed there. I am sure they are worth discussing, it is my opinion, though, that they have very limited relevance to the topic of value of Island Packets vs other (overwhelmingly GRP) boats.

+1

 

[newtothis]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Just wondering if we could ask moderators to move all posts on virtue of steel boats from this thread into some new thread and have them discussed there. I am sure they are worth discussing, it is my opinion, though, that they have very limited relevance to the topic of value of Island Packets vs other (overwhelmingly GRP) boats.

Brent should be given his own forum where he can he can regale the benefits of homemade steel boats to thousands that will no doubt congregate there to hear his words of wisdom.

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

It was not me who first mentioned steel boats on this thread , but had to correct the instant disinformation attack on all steel boats, which followed a steel boat enthusiasts post. (see post#2) Not doing so would be a disinformation disservice to readers, leaving them mislead.

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

Not being contentious here Brent, but what are you trying to say by pointing out these posts?

They all give personal opinions about IP's, which is fine.

But I dont understand how you refering to them as posted by others is relevant to the debate.

Be nice if you could help me out here.

They say I am not the only one with questions to pose on this design, as you misleadingly imply. Readers have a right to both pros and cons, which is what we assumed they were asking for. You seem to assume otherwise.

 

[Brent Swain]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

What is it about the phrase "home made steel boat" which makes me think of shaggy beards, dirndls and grubby toddlers? And trust funds?

Don't forget "free people who cruise 11 months a year , or more, with an environmental foot print which is microscopic, compared to the mainstream folks, instead of cruising only on the odd weekend, and a three week summer vacation." Don't forget "People who are very capable of doing their own work ,and doing adult day care work for those who can't, when off the beaten path, in remote areas, who's gear is mostly "custom, hand made" to a much higher standard of reliability than anything you can buy from a marine store."

 

[Daydream believer]

Re: Island Packet-are they worth it?

who's gear is mostly "custom, hand made" to a much higher standard of reliability

The more I read your posts the more I somehow tend to doubt that !!!
I am gradually building a mental picture of some "DIY disaster" floating about the oceans.
Of course I might be totally wrong, one would hope so, perhaps it's the way you present your points. I wonder if others have the same feeling.