The Mediterranean charter fleet

[DoubleEnder]

Just back from a shore based holiday in the Saronic Gulf area of Greece. It was interesting to see the charter boats- it’s 6 years since we were there last, and there are far more bigger sailing yachts, 13-15 metres seems to be the median length now. The weather was hot and dry, calm in the mornings mostly and a bit of breeze from early afternoon onwards. But so many of the sailing boats don’t sail, they just motor. Sometimes they have the poor old main sail up while they motor, and sometimes I guess they get a bit of drive from it. But quite often it was not doing much at all.

I can understand why, there is some competition to get in to good harbours and mooring spots for the night, and the best ones fill up early so you’ve got to get there early and that means….motoring, usually. If you hang around for the breeze, and go sailing, you might miss out.

Of course there are exceptions but this did seem to be a widely followed pattern.

So, what’s the point of having a sailing yacht in these sorts of areas? The boats are all modern mass produced models, and while they are sort of optimised for Mediterranean chartering with big cockpits, swim platforms, lots of hatches etc, they are also sold in other markets for more varied use. I think the exact same models are used to sail in North Sea, or English channel, Brittany etc, and they are fine there too. I see them in the Solent, all the time, sailing well, often. Some of them do ocean passages, and I think they do fine there too if properly prepared and crewed. So they are good sailing boats, versatile and seaworthy. But kind of rubbish for Mediterranean charter……

Sailing yacht hulls, unless they are very big, don’t really lend themselves to having lots of comfortable cabins. Or lots of useable deck space. The ‘aft cabins’ under the cockpit, and the forward cabin in the bows are inevitably cramped and compromised. The deck is obstructed by a large, expensive and rarely used mast and the front 1/3 of it is pointy, weird and narrow.

Some catamarans have evolved and lost the rig. They are power cats and look like they do the charter job very well. But they don’t have the same space constraints as a monohull so all they had to do was ditch the mast, job done. Wouldn’t work for a monohull obviously.

So why do the charter companies not commission purpose built motor yachts, monohull with clear decks, reasonable high cabin tops, nice big cockpit, room for decent cabins etc? They wouldn’t need to look or be fast, as the customers are clearly quite happy to cruise under power at what, 7,8, 9 knots? Not fast anyway. No need for planing hulls or big engines.

I guess there is a danger they might end up looking like something from the Norfolk Broads, but I bet it would be possible to design something that is spacious, stable, comfortable and could even look interesting.

A couple of years ago I did see an innovation, I think from Jeanneau who marketed a charter sailing yacht that had only sleeping cabins below, with no saloon. They reckon that people do all their waking activities on deck or ashore, there was no need for a saloon below, and just had a little galley thing in the cockpit. That way you get more berths and heads in the boat. I thought that was quite interesting but I’ve no idea if it took off.

Anyway, just a thought. Wish I was still there, really

 

[justanothersailboat]

Everything you say is making the North Sea in December in a forty year old 26-footer with no heating seem more and more appealing. Thank you for saving me a lot of money

 

[DoubleEnder]

Thinking more about this ( though I’ve no idea why) perhaps the economics of a purpose built fleet wouldn’t work? I don’t know, but I I think the charter companies either:

A/ operate boats that are privately owned, and those owners will eventually want to go sailing. So they need a conventional yacht. Or
B/ own and operate boats for a limited number of years before selling the boats on to private owners, who want to go sailing. So they need a conventional sailing yacht too.

Purpose built Mediterranean motor cruisers would have a really limited secondary market , and the charter companies would have to run them for a long long time. Like they do on the Norfolk Broads.

Or, is it just that charterers like the idea that they are on a proper sailing yacht, even though it’s hard for them to use it as such?

 

[AndyDavies]

Just back from a shore based holiday in the Saronic Gulf area of Greece. It was interesting to see the charter boats- it’s 6 years since we were there last, and there are far more bigger sailing yachts, 13-15 metres seems to be the median length now. The weather was hot and dry, calm in the mornings mostly and a bit of breeze from early afternoon onwards. But so many of the sailing boats don’t sail, they just motor. Sometimes they have the poor old main sail up while they motor, and sometimes I guess they get a bit of drive from it. But quite often it was not doing much at all.

I can understand why, there is some competition to get in to good harbours and mooring spots for the night, and the best ones fill up early so you’ve got to get there early and that means….motoring, usually. If you hang around for the breeze, and go sailing, you might miss out.

Of course there are exceptions but this did seem to be a widely followed pattern.

So, what’s the point of having a sailing yacht in these sorts of areas? The boats are all modern mass produced models, and while they are sort of optimised for Mediterranean chartering with big cockpits, swim platforms, lots of hatches etc, they are also sold in other markets for more varied use. I think the exact same models are used to sail in North Sea, or English channel, Brittany etc, and they are fine there too. I see them in the Solent, all the time, sailing well, often. Some of them do ocean passages, and I think they do fine there too if properly prepared and crewed. So they are good sailing boats, versatile and seaworthy. But kind of rubbish for Mediterranean charter……

Sailing yacht hulls, unless they are very big, don’t really lend themselves to having lots of comfortable cabins. Or lots of useable deck space. The ‘aft cabins’ under the cockpit, and the forward cabin in the bows are inevitably cramped and compromised. The deck is obstructed by a large, expensive and rarely used mast and the front 1/3 of it is pointy, weird and narrow.

Some catamarans have evolved and lost the rig. They are power cats and look like they do the charter job very well. But they don’t have the same space constraints as a monohull so all they had to do was ditch the mast, job done. Wouldn’t work for a monohull obviously.

So why do the charter companies not commission purpose built motor yachts, monohull with clear decks, reasonable high cabin tops, nice big cockpit, room for decent cabins etc? They wouldn’t need to look or be fast, as the customers are clearly quite happy to cruise under power at what, 7,8, 9 knots? Not fast anyway. No need for planing hulls or big engines.

I guess there is a danger they might end up looking like something from the Norfolk Broads, but I bet it would be possible to design something that is spacious, stable, comfortable and could even look interesting.

A couple of years ago I did see an innovation, I think from Jeanneau who marketed a charter sailing yacht that had only sleeping cabins below, with no saloon. They reckon that people do all their waking activities on deck or ashore, there was no need for a saloon below, and just had a little galley thing in the cockpit. That way you get more berths and heads in the boat. I thought that was quite interesting but I’ve no idea if it took off.

Anyway, just a thought. Wish I was still there, really

Image is everything. A boat with sails is as important as Dubarry boots in Cowes' High Street

 

[Irish Rover]

My boat is an ex charter power catamaran. I spent some time in the Sunsail base close to Split in the early spring and I was amazed how many powercats they have in their fleet. These are all made by Leopard in SA, and almost all their output goes to the charter companies. One of the guys in Sunsail told me that very many of their sailing boats come back in with the sails never having been unfurled. He also told me that customers who charter a powercat would never consider a sailing boat again because of the space it affords.
There's an element of snobbery of course, many people believing it's not a yacht unless it has sails or merits the super prefix.

 

[ashtead]

It would seem that the rush to get to a berth is a real issue. Looking at some utube recently ofchatering with in Croatia via navigare yachting some lovely sites to visit though but it does seem the venues are well patronised by large cats taking up all the space compared to say 30years ago stern moored to quay.

 

[Sailing steve]

It would seem that the rush to get to a berth is a real issue. Looking at some utube recently ofchatering with in Croatia via navigare yachting some lovely sites to visit though but it does seem the venues are well patronised by large cats taking up all the space compared to say 30years ago stern moored to quay.

Definitely the case in Croatia.

Even in the shoulder season If you've not pre booked then you'll need to be on a marina berth by mid afternoon or chances are you won't get one at all. Same goes for the chargeable mooring buoys that have proliferated in what used to be quiet anchorages you could enjoy on your own and if you think that's too overcrowded just wait till you encounter the late Friday afternoon carnage and argy bargy free for all to get onto the fuel berths.

And forget any chance of peace and quiet anywhere if you're unfortunate enough to end up in the same overnight location as the drunken, coked-up all night party people attracted to the obnoxious Yacht Week flotillas.

 

[mjcoon]

...

Or, is it just that charterers like the idea that they are on a proper sailing yacht, even though it’s hard for them to use it as such?

If it is all about social networking, as one might suspect, you only have to dare to get the sails up once in a holiday to collect a snap to publish/share...

 

[benjenbav]

Thinking more about this ( though I’ve no idea why) perhaps the economics of a purpose built fleet wouldn’t work? I don’t know, but I I think the charter companies either:

A/ operate boats that are privately owned, and those owners will eventually want to go sailing. So they need a conventional yacht. Or
B/ own and operate boats for a limited number of years before selling the boats on to private owners, who want to go sailing. So they need a conventional sailing yacht too.

Purpose built Mediterranean motor cruisers would have a really limited secondary market , and the charter companies would have to run them for a long long time. Like they do on the Norfolk Broads.

Or, is it just that charterers like the idea that they are on a proper sailing yacht, even though it’s hard for them to use it as such?

I think you may have answered your own question!

A year or so ago I looked at the possibility of investing in yachts to be used in the charter market and then sold.

Using the numbers that the charter operators advertise it didn’t make sense unless you add in some dream value.

By which I mean that if you invest in one yacht, get several years of discounted holidays and then keep the yacht for your own use when it is retired from charter then you might easily feel that you had got something you wanted, well-maintained and at a decent price.

But, as a commercial investment - let’s just say that it would not be difficult to find a better return.

I left it as a desktop project and so I couldn’t say how much pencil-sharpening charter operators might manage if they saw the prospect of a number of yachts regularly coming into their fleets from a passive investor.

However, I was left with the distinct impression that the yachts need to be desirable to the people who put up the money for the charter companies to buy them.

Hence, if you turn the dial too far towards Broads cruiser with maximum accommodation, then you will likely struggle to get folk to pony up in order to own the vessel for their own use a few years down the line.

Sailing boats are romantic. Who doesn’t watch them from the shore and think, ‘I wish that was me’?

But, once on board, with a group keen to get to a restaurant reservation on time, it’s a case of firing up the engine and head straight for the destination; none of that having to zig-zag around if the wind’s in the wrong direction; which it will be as well as being too strong or not strong enough.

 

[benjenbav]

If it is all about social networking, as one might suspect, you only have to dare to get the sails up once in a holiday to collect a snap to publish/share...

I’m sure there’s a great deal in that. But I’ve never understood why folk don’t just enjoy the moment and quite what they get out of telling others about their lifestyle.

 

[DoubleEnder]

Yes, I guess that’s it. People want to feel they are on a proper yacht. But it did make me think that if I were ever to do one of these charter holidays I’d probably go for a powercat. And I like sailing.

The other thing I really noticed had changed was the number of genuine superyachts, 30m and above, several of them 50m +. We were having a shore and beach holiday, and there’s a little beach we’ve visited over the years. You go there on a trip boat, diesel launch ride from the town, pay a few € and when you get there it’s pretty quiet, a very little beach bar, few umbrellas, no music, no showers but they now have a loo! Just around the corner, a 5 minute walk is the next bay where there is a tiny pretty old chapel, no beach just rocks. Lovely clear water. Six years ago this would often be completely empty, maybe one little local boat or perhaps a charter yacht, and we would walk round and have a swim off the rocks there.

This time it was jammed! Several motor yachts 30-40 m. An 80 foot catamaran! Throbbing with generators, music on board. Dozens of people bobbing about, SUPs, jet skis, those funny little underwater torpedoes that pull you along… all squeezed in to this little bay. What a shame. The public beach was much quieter!

What also made me snigger was that all of these big boats have highly visible names emblazoned on the stern, often also on the side, often illuminated at night. So you can Google the boats and say ‘ oooh that one is €500,00 a week, but the one next door is only €250,000 he he he they must only have one chef or something…..’

So the whole exclusivity side of it seems to have eaten itself alive. There are more exclusive anchorages on the Swale, though admittedly the water is less alluring for a dip

O tempora o mores

 

[Tranona]

I think you may have answered your own question!

A year or so ago I looked at the possibility of investing in yachts to be used in the charter market and then sold.

Using the numbers that the charter operators advertise it didn’t make sense unless you add in some dream value.

By which I mean that if you invest in one yacht, get several years of discounted holidays and then keep the yacht for your own use when it is retired from charter then you might easily feel that you had got something you wanted, well-maintained and at a decent price.

But, as a commercial investment - let’s just say that it would not be difficult to find a better return.

I left it as a desktop project and so I couldn’t say how much pencil-sharpening charter operators might manage if they saw the prospect of a number of yachts regularly coming into their fleets from a passive investor.

However, I was left with the distinct impression that the yachts need to be desirable to the people who put up the money for the charter companies to buy them.

Hence, if you turn the dial too far towards Broads cruiser with maximum accommodation, then you will likely struggle to get folk to pony up in order to own the vessel for their own use a few years down the line.

Sailing boats are romantic. Who doesn’t watch them from the shore and think, ‘I wish that was me’?

But, once on board, with a group keen to get to a restaurant reservation on time, it’s a case of firing up the engine and head straight for the destination; none of that having to zig-zag around if the wind’s in the wrong direction; which it will be as well as being too strong or not strong enough.

This is precisely the process,(and conclusions) I went through when I bought my boat in 2001 under such a scheme and by the skin of my teeth it worked out as planned, although we only got 2 clear years after chartering finished before medical issues killed off the idea of keeping it out in Corfu, The choice was then selling it in a crowded market and taking probably a £10k hit or spending about half that bringing it back to the UK. The latter was my choice and although it started out as a trip of a lifetime there were problems on the way and a time constraint of an appointment with the knife (actually keyhole surgery) meant it ended up as a boring delivery slog to Spain and then a big truck back to Poole. Anyway it worked out as when my life expectancy improved 5 years later I was able to use it to get a fantastic deal on a new boat.

You are right, these deals only make sense if you can realistically use the "free" weeks in a way that gives you good value. For us it did with a little bit of man maths. Typically the cost of 2-3 weeks holiday was greater than the interest on the money I borrowed against the house on a fixed interest only mortgage. Different world from today. Also different was the environment in the Ionian as we started (1998) going there while it was still unspoilt, everything was in Drachma and a week's food and drink came to £50-60 a head. Anchorages were mainly empty and quays rarely overcrowded - but still fun watching the mooring rush in late afternoon with a strong crosswind!. Last time I went was in 2018, but land based and we all agreed we had the best of it in the first 10 years of this century.

 

[RupertW]

It’s not so hard if you aren’t part of a charter fleet as you can get great sailing weeks in normal summer weather in Croatia and Greece if you just follow the pattern instead of fighting it.

For the occasional marina night you just have to motor in the calm to be there between 11:30 and 14:00 to take a slot when someone leaves and half the harbour wall or marine will leave every day. So that’s maybe one day a week you aren’t sailing.

The rest of the time it’s waking up in a dead calm turquoise anchorage after a peaceful night, swimming, leisurely breakfast, boat maintenance, more swimming and prepare lunch when the water just start to ruffle.

Sail out under full sail, maybe get a colourful sail up until the wind gets too strong, then reef as needed before arriving at an anchorage just as the dozens of little motorboats are heading back to harbour after a day out. Take one of the shallower spots (no swell, no tides) where they have left and accept that it’s too windy for swimming.

Have a beer, cook and just after dusk the wind dies so you eat and drink in the warm night.

Chichester harbour to Cowes just isn’t the same after a season or two of that.

 

[vas]

+100
even in crosses between islands, straight line path of 20nm with no complications, 95% will motor. Only private (non greek flagged!) yachts seem to enjoy sailing.

Mind, sometimes, you can use the flotillas to your advantage (obvs when not chartering!)
in our case, we know 90% all charters to the Sporades (Skiathos, Skopelos, Alonissos) start from Volos on a Sunday.
So, if I want to be in Alonissos isle only "port", it shouldn't be Wed-Thu as that's the time it takes a normal charter crew to reach there. So we go at the w/e when we know only the v.rare two week charters will be there then

Mind over the last 3-4yrs there were some good incentives from the GR government for companies (and individuals) to replace/update their charter boats. So they all went en mass to FR and DE yards and bought the lowest priced /suitable spec 45-55ft yacht they could find. Max cabin layouts (obvs!) silly anchors (typically) bit of teak for the deck and that's it.

V

 

[dgadee]

The price of work on boats in Greece - multiply south coast prices by at least 2! God knows what a 45 or 50 footer would cost to refurbish after a few years use. And where would you take it if you moved away from Greece (with its cheap town quays and plenty of anchorages)? Are we going to see a glut of mid-life 15m boats that no-one wants or can afford?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I keep my boat in Croatia and fortunately we prefer to avoid the hotspots and anchor as far away as possible from the charter fleets. They are at least predictable .... all generally following the same routes but after years among the islands we know lots of unmarked or unfrequented anchorages off the beaten track. It has definitely got busier though since we first went there in 2005.

Get the boat set up for off-grid living and we'll maybe get a few more years before the whole place becomes a charter boat nightmare, at which point we'll go further afield. Overtourism is certainly a thing, and I can understand why the locals are getting miffed.

 

[Zkaliman]

I agree with you : Or, is it just that charterers like the idea that they are on a proper sailing yacht, even though it’s hard for them to use it as such?

I found me a 44 defever offshore cruiser that does 7.5 knots , stabilized, twin ford Lehman 135hp - in Spain now - hope to get to that neck of the woods. https://www.defevercruisers.com/design_details.asp?id=11