The MCA is planning on scaling back the number of marine offices.

[Bru]

Firstly apologies all round for last nights ranty post - a long and tiring day coupled with a late night and the water of life!

You will notice that I said our local lifeboat; I did not say a V1 lifeboat. I did not say an awb. In fact ours is a reconditionned 1990 model..

And went on to say ...

"However you can have 15 Vedettes N°1 for the price of the 2 Ferraris donated to the RNLI. Or you can have 3 Shannons with their launching trolley."

At best you're simply confused. At worst you're being deliberately misleading

And once again I'm having difficulty verify your claims for French lifeboats

According to my searches, the All Weather Lifeboat (and I note you subtly say "I did not say an AWB") at St. Malo is the SNS072 with a top speed of 19 knots. The other lifeboat at St. Malo is the SNS441 and although I can't find the info to positively prove it I rather suspect it is this boat for which you are quoting a top speed of 30 knots ...

when this boat is not an All Weather Lifeboat and simply cannot be compared to Shannon (It's capabilities are closer to the Atlantic class RIB than an AWB)

This is the St. Malo AWB ...

and her capabilities are comparable with the previous generation of RNLI boats (Tynes and Merseys) which are now being phased out and replaced by Tamars and Shannons.

I've noted this often in these discussions ... you persistently cherry pick facts, mix and mess around with invalid comparisons and ignore anything that doesn't suit your argument

And whether you like the financial numbers or not, to disparage the sophisticated and brilliant engineering solution to a critical requirement that is Shannon's launching system as a "trolley" is ridiculous. It will save lives and that is well worth the cost and the development time

Incidentally some of those august members who contributed to the forum in 2001/2 suggested that some of the vast reserves might be better employed in buying helicopters....

I stopped short of developing this theme last night when I realised I was ranting and ought to go to bed!

Several times you've hinted and implied that helicopters are the solution for areas that are beyond the capabilities of your much loved French lifeboats. However, helicopters cannot fly in any weather. Nor can helicopters tow a vessel in distress.

And if you think Shannon is expensive, go cost up the procurement and running costs of a SAR helicopter! It will make your eyes water!

I can't find the specific cost of the Bristow's SAR version of the Sikorsky S-92 but the base price for the stock aircraft is $17.7m! Even the RNLI's coffers would be dented by the purchase and running costs of a fleet of such helicopters (and don't bother fudging figures from smaller, less capable, aircraft. We're talking about alternatives to a beach launched All Weather Lifeboat and any alternative has got to match the capabilities of Shannon as closely as possible)

There is nothing, simply nothing, available anywhere in the world that can do everything Shannon can do. The RNLI engineers looked and concluded that a custom design was the only way to meet the stated requirement.

Yes, it took years to develop. Yes, there were engineering problems and issues along the way. Yes, they had to go back to the drawing board and virtually start again. And yes, it cost an arm and a leg. That's what a major design and development project starting from scratch is like. I've worked on such projects, I've managed such projects. They don't come cheap and they don't come without problems along the way. Happily, the people in control of the RNLI purse strings don't think like you do and backed the engineers with the money they needed to bring the project to fruition

You still don't get it, or perhaps you don't want to get it. There are a few voices of dissent in the wilderness (not much in evidence even so) but the vast majority of RNLI supporters and UK base folks in general don't give a fig if Shannon is gold plated and washed down with Frankincense and Myrrh after every shout!

Like I've said before, there's a lot (or to be precise there has been in the past) to criticise about the non-core operations at the RNLI (much has been done and continues to be done under the current executive) but few people have any issue at all with spending as much as it takes to give the operational crews the best possible equipment

The best of the French AWBs may be nearly as good as Shannon (actually I, and many others don't think they're anywhere near as good but that's beside the point) but they are not AS good as Shannon. Even if Shannon is only a little bit better it's worth the extra cost. If, of course, the money is available. Happily in the UK and Ireland it is available thanks to the generosity of the public and the incredibly successful long term financial management and fund raising at the RNLI

And make no mistake, the RNLI is the shining jewel in the crown of the third sector in the UK. It is the envy of every other charity and often the model that is looked to for an example of operational excellence and financial astuteness.

And also make no mistake about those large reserves. You claim to have UK charity experience so you ought to know this and I have served as the trustee of a large(ish at any rate) UK charity and what's more on the Finance committee and I do know for a fact that the RNLI trustees will be having to justify those reserves year on year to the Charity Commissioners who are, and have been for the last couple of decades, very very leery of charities holding monies and not spending them

Those reserves are future proofing and a good thing too.

Anyway, enough is enough. No doubt you'll start yet another interminable thread when the annual report is published. I can't wait <sigh>

 

[Quandary]

Anyway, enough is enough. No doubt you'll start yet another interminable thread when the annual report is published. I can't wait <sigh>[/QUOTE]

You guys who think that Sybarite is a pain in the butt with his crusade must never have experienced life with the non sailors down in the lounge. Credit to those who sought to engage; for the others who tell him to shut up, surely the forum is for an exchange of ideas, it would be a shame if it was closed to threads that might be critical or lacking political correctness and support for the establishment.

 

[Bru]

You guys who think that Sybarite is a pain in the butt with his crusade must never have experienced life with the non sailors down in the lounge. Credit to those who sought to engage; for the others who tell him to shut up, surely the forum is for an exchange of ideas, it would be a shame if it was closed to threads that might be critical or lacking political correctness and support for the establishment.

Oh I've spent far too much of my time in the Lounge!

It's not a question of telling anyone to shut up at all but Sybarite keeps worrying at the same old bone two or three times ever year and always with the same nonsensical arguments that have been disputed, refuted and dismissed time and time again by people with specific and genuine knowledge of the actual facts

As I keep saying, he had some good points about the RNLI finances to begin with (albeit ones that were already for the most part being addressed by the RNLI executive as it turned out) but since he got fixated on the cost and capability of the Shannon lifeboats he just will not accept that he's barking up the wrong tree!

Anyway, telling Sybarite to shut up is akin to Canute telling the tide to turn back! Ain't gonna happen

 

[dom]

.......And make no mistake, the RNLI is the shining jewel in the crown of the third sector in the UK. It is the envy of every other charity and often the model that is looked to for an example of operational excellence and financial astuteness.

And also make no mistake about those large reserves. You claim to have UK charity experience so you ought to know this and I have served as the trustee of a large(ish at any rate) UK charity and what's more on the Finance committee and I do know for a fact that the RNLI trustees will be having to justify those reserves year on year to the Charity Commissioners who are, and have been for the last couple of decades, very very leery of charities holding monies and not spending them

Those reserves are future proofing and a good thing too....

OK I've reported this post to the mods: it's interesting, informative, well argued, non repetetive and to the point -- not the done thing on in these threads I'm afraid

 

[chanelyacht]

You will notice that I said our local lifeboat; I did not say a V1 lifeboat. I did not say an awb. In fact ours is a reconditionned 1990 model.

"Locmiquelic 2007

Cette vedette totalement revue par la SNSM de Saint Mâlo . Elle est comme " neuve" disent tous les membres du futur équipage. C'est une vedette de 1990, de 9 mètres de long et propulsée par 2 hydrojets Elle peut atteindre 55 km/h soit 30 noeuds. "...

So the best comparison is to the Atlantic 85, which has a top speed of 35 knots.

Is your local boat capable of being righted - either self or with crew triggering?

 

[Tranona]

Firstly apologies all round for last nights ranty post - a long and tiring day coupled with a late night and the water of life!

I've noted this often in these discussions ... you persistently cherry pick facts, mix and mess around with invalid comparisons and ignore anything that doesn't suit your argument




Several times you've hinted and implied that helicopters are the solution for areas that are beyond the capabilities of your much loved French lifeboats. However, helicopters cannot fly in any weather. Nor can helicopters tow a vessel in distress.

No need to apologise.

Bringing helicopters is a red herring and once again demonstrates Sybarites lack of understanding.

Air Sea Rescue helicopters in the UK are funded directly by the government out of general taxation. The history explains the way the service was provided. Originally helicopters were used to rescue downed aircrew and therefore operated by the air force and navy. The dual role of forces and civilian use came about as justification for the establishment of the Wessex fleet which could not be justified just for forces use in peacetime.

Now the Wessex are obsolete and the forces no longer have a requirement for similar helicopters the civilian service is now operated by a commercial organisation but funded direct from government. However, no doubt if the government had decided not to continue funding a charitable organisation would have taken up the task - just as most of the air Ambulance service is financed through local charities (but operated by commercial companies). The RNLI would probably have been involved if that was the case - but it is not.

The important thing, as you say is that helicopters and lifeboats are not interchangeable or substitutes but complementary and the coastguard tasks whichever is appropriate, sometimes both to the same incident.

 

[Sybarite]

Firstly apologies all round for last nights ranty post - a long and tiring day coupled with a late night and the water of life!



And went on to say ...

"However you can have 15 Vedettes N°1 for the price of the 2 Ferraris donated to the RNLI. Or you can have 3 Shannons with their launching trolley."

At best you're simply confused. At worst you're being deliberately misleading

And once again I'm having difficulty verify your claims for French lifeboats

According to my searches, the All Weather Lifeboat (and I note you subtly say "I did not say an AWB") at St. Malo is the SNS072 with a top speed of 19 knots. The other lifeboat at St. Malo is the SNS441 and although I can't find the info to positively prove it I rather suspect it is this boat for which you are quoting a top speed of 30 knots ...

when this boat is not an All Weather Lifeboat and simply cannot be compared to Shannon (It's capabilities are closer to the Atlantic class RIB than an AWB)

This is the St. Malo AWB ...

and her capabilities are comparable with the previous generation of RNLI boats (Tynes and Merseys) which are now being phased out and replaced by Tamars and Shannons.

I've noted this often in these discussions ... you persistently cherry pick facts, mix and mess around with invalid comparisons and ignore anything that doesn't suit your argument

O the irony of it! Who said anything about St Malo? (OK EDIT : St Malo is the SNSM technical centre where a team of mechanics - representing the largest group of employees within the SNSM - service and recondition the boats. Boats typically have a service life of 30 years with a major renovation after 15 years.)

http://www.locmiquelic.org/histoire-snsm-18.html Scroll down to near the bottom. I believe that the boat is self-righting but I cannot confirm it - for the moment.

".....which are now being phased out and replaced by Tamars and Shannons.

OK take the Tamar. 53' €3.5m; French CTT (AWB) new design 58' €1.4m ( and they have just announced that they are grouping their purchases in such a way as to knock a further €200k to €300k off the price). So the smaller Tamar costs at least three times as much as the French CTT. I suppose you will argue that it too is three times better?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3dsj0i (Incidentally the capsize test was done with the crew in place.)

What can the Tamar do that the French boat cannot?

Several times you've hinted and implied that helicopters are the solution for areas that are beyond the capabilities of your much loved French lifeboats. However, helicopters cannot fly in any weather. Nor can helicopters tow a vessel in distress.

I think you will see that I was quoting other people who suggested this. Incidentally $17.7m goes into £300m how many times? At that price they could by a helicopter per year out of their average annual £23m surplus.

There is nothing, simply nothing, available anywhere in the world that can do everything Shannon can do. The RNLI engineers looked and concluded that a custom design was the only way to meet the stated requirement.

Yes, it took years to develop. Yes, there were engineering problems and issues along the way. Yes, they had to go back to the drawing board and virtually start again. And yes, it cost an arm and a leg. That's what a major design and development project starting from scratch is like. I've worked on such projects, I've managed such projects. They don't come cheap and they don't come without problems along the way. Happily, the people in control of the RNLI purse strings don't think like you do and backed the engineers with the money they needed to bring the project to fruition

I never doubted that the Shannon is a good boat. What I criticized was the crazy decision to bring design and construction in-house. As you say future development will centre around two boats: the Tamar and the Shannon. So having designed "the best boat(s) in the world" what are your designers going to be doing? The SNSM out-sources the design and build so that it is not saddled with this huge pot of fixed expense. IMHO that is eminently sensible. In addition if there is a screw-up in the design process as what happened with the Shannon, it's not a cost for the SNSM. They are not outsourcing it to newbies but to design and build teams who are already selling lifeboats around the world. The new CTT took less than 3 years from design to delivery and the design phase, which included all the interested parties, took two years. As the production director said in the clip, the CTT is a simple but extremely robust unsinkable design that is easily serviced. Ie a Range Rover rather than a Jaguar

You still don't get it, or perhaps you don't want to get it. There are a few voices of dissent in the wilderness (not much in evidence even so) but the vast majority of RNLI supporters and UK base folks in general don't give a fig if Shannon is gold plated and washed down with Frankincense and Myrrh after every shout!

As I said on another post I believe that the public understand that they are helping to fund lifeboats when they put money in the tin or bequeathe part of their estate to the RNLI.

Did you know that over the last 9 years, spend on lifeboats (£101.2m), even the gold-plated ones, represented on average only 6.5% of incoming resources ? This is less than half of what was spent on raising funds. Over that same period the net operating surplus has totalled £211.1m and management pension contributions totalled £85.5m.

Anyway, enough is enough. No doubt you'll start yet another interminable thread when the annual report is published. I can't wait <sigh>

Suggestion : put me on ignore.

 

[Sybarite]

and once again demonstrates Sybarites lack of understanding. .

The patronizing tone of your posts is really beginning to piss me off.

My posts are researched and reasoned, not the ad hom nature of yours.

As regards the present: you explain the role of military helicopters. So what? Is there anything to prevent the RNLI from acquiring them? Their object is to save life in difficult circumstances where a lifeboat might have difficulty accessing.

 

[chanelyacht]

As regards the present: you explain the role of military helicopters. So what? Is there anything to prevent the RNLI from acquiring them?

They're all in bits or standing as gate guardians.

Plus they'd have no mandate under UKSAR to operate them.

Also, they're a bit sh*t at towing boats.

 

[Tranona]

The patronizing tone of your posts is really beginning to piss me off.

My posts are researched and reasoned, not the ad hom nature of yours.

As regards the present: you explain the role of military helicopters. So what? Is there anything to prevent the RNLI from acquiring them? Their object is to save life in difficult circumstances where a lifeboat might have difficulty accessing.

I explained the background to how the Air Sea rescue service is organised in the UK and why it it is that way. There is no reason why the RNLI (or any other charity) should own or operate a rival service as it is fully covered by the tax paying funded service.

Just using it as an example to illustrate your lack of understanding. If that pisses you off - then so what? Perhaps you should really do your alleged research properly rather than jumping to conclusions from a low knowledge base.

BTW as chanelyacht says all the military machines are decommissioned. Will shortly be coming up for sale. Expected prices ranging from £10k for an empty hull (might make a good garden shed) to £150k+ for a complete unit. Perhaps the French services will buy them up!

 

[rickp]

As its nearly time for Sybarite's annual tilt-at-windmills, maybe he could contrast the two systems and explain why the french system is better? For instance, it seems reasonably clear that the SNSM approach to charging for towing was directly responsible for this:

Fishing boats often want to tow in a yacht in difficulties - they see it as more profitable than fishing, perhaps. In this case, during the towing operation - the fishing vessel managed to get the rope around its prop and went aground. The yacht managed to avoid the rocks fortunately. Alas the fishing boat was lost during the later salvage operation.

I believe that in the UK, the RNLI would have had no issue with taking the yacht in tow, and having a job done by the experts would mean there would be no need for a fishing boat to get into such a mess.

The RNLI may cost more, but if it avoids situations like the above, its probably worth it...

 

[Sybarite]

As its nearly time for Sybarite's annual tilt-at-windmills, maybe he could contrast the two systems and explain why the french system is better? For instance, it seems reasonably clear that the SNSM approach to charging for towing was directly responsible for this:

Fishing boats often want to tow in a yacht in difficulties - they see it as more profitable than fishing, perhaps. In this case, during the towing operation - the fishing vessel managed to get the rope around its prop and went aground. The yacht managed to avoid the rocks fortunately. Alas the fishing boat was lost during the later salvage operation.

I believe that in the UK, the RNLI would have had no issue with taking the yacht in tow, and having a job done by the experts would mean there would be no need for a fishing boat to get into such a mess.

The RNLI may cost more, but if it avoids situations like the above, its probably worth it...

The SNSM charge for towing a yacht is only supposed to defray their direct charges eg fuel ; to do anything more would mean that they would be operating on a commercial basis which their statutes and French law do not allow.

OTOH they are also under pressure from commercial towing operations who say they cannot compete with such unfair competition and so the SNSM has to defend itself on that basis as well.

However when the RNLI performs an operation for "free" it's not that really. The payment was made in advance through the subscriptions and the service has been collectivised as in insurance.

 

[chanelyacht]

I explained the background to how the Air Sea rescue service is organised in the UK and why it it is that way. There is no reason why the RNLI (or any other charity) should own or operate a rival service as it is fully covered by the tax paying funded service.

Plus, if they'd wanted to, the RNLI could have bid to provide the service when it originally went out to tender. They didn't.

As others have said on here, if you want to see the costs of a Shannon, SLRS and new boathouse made to look like chicken feed, start looking at airframe costs!

 

[chanelyacht]

So the best comparison is to the Atlantic 85, which has a top speed of 35 knots.

Is your local boat capable of being righted - either self or with crew triggering?

Just to remind Sybarite, this one's still outstanding

 

[Sybarite]

Just to remind Sybarite, this one's still outstanding

No it's not; see post #87.

You might like to tell me why the Tamar costs 3 times as much as the brand new SNSM CTT which is bigger and has a longer range?

Or why only 6.5% of revenues is spent on (expensive) boats?

 

[chanelyacht]

No it's not; see post #87.

I believe that the boat is self-righting but I cannot confirm it - for the moment.

So still outstanding then.

You might like to tell me why the Tamar costs 3 times as much as the brand new SNSM CTT which is bigger and has a longer range?

It's a far better boat for the crew, for a start. Ever been on one?

Or why only 6.5% of revenues is spent on (expensive) boats?

If you can post the link to that figure, I'll try and answer it. There is a planned build programme and, after all, it wouldn't make sense to build more boats than you needed....

 

[Sybarite]

Plus, if they'd wanted to, the RNLI could have bid to provide the service when it originally went out to tender. They didn't.

As others have said on here, if you want to see the costs of a Shannon, SLRS and new boathouse made to look like chicken feed, start looking at airframe costs!

I know what airframe costs are like. I was corporate secretary of a group which owned aviation companies including an aircraft repair plant.

 

[chanelyacht]

I know what airframe costs are like. I was corporate secretary of a group which owned aviation companies including an aircraft repair plant.

Which makes your comments even stranger....

 

[Sybarite]

So still outstanding then.

Generally when boats have a flotation chamber of a superstructure they are self-righting. I tried calling the coxwain whom I know to confirm but he wasn't there today.

It's a far better boat for the crew, for a start. Ever been on one?

In what way is it better? Does that justify x3 cost factor?

If you can post the link to that figure, I'll try and answer it. There is a planned build programme and, after all, it wouldn't make sense to build more boats than you needed....

Try looking at the RNLI annual accounts. You can get at least the last 5 years on line where the percentage is 8%. In the 4 preceding years it was 4.5%...!!

I will tell you in fact what I see the problem to be.

The RNLI have got themselves into an almost unfixable bind. On the one hand they feel they need to keep up the momentum on fundraising because if ever the public becomes disenchanted they (RNLI) might have trouble rekindling the effort. OTOH they are strapped with an in-house building facility which structures and limits their potential build programme.

How long do you think the Charity Commissioners or the public will condone the surplus being increased annually at twice the amount spent on boats?

 

[Sybarite]

Which makes your comments even stranger....

unless you consider the funds available...