The MCA is planning on scaling back the number of marine offices.

chanelyacht said:
Tamars, by the way, aren't being built any more. The replacement programme for the relevant stations is complete.
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Perhaps you should pass on the message to the RNLI. Apparently they haven't heard about this yet.

The first Tamar went on station at Tenby in Wales in 2006 and the Tamar class lifeboats will gradually replace the Tyne class.

The last Tyne was built in 1990 and the class will be gradually replaced by the Tamar class.

Source RNLI site.
 
Tranona said:
Absolutely no problem in appreciating or understanding the sums involved - just not as frightened or in awe of them as you seem to be. For those used to working in or with large complex organisations sums of 10's or even 100's of millions of £s hold no fear.

As ever if you want to understand the importance of the numbers you need to understand the context - and that is seemingly your greatest problem. You think in a "corner shop" mentality rather than trying to put yourself in the position of being responsible for the organisation.
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Having been a finance director with a department of 160 people in an organization that buys 55000 vehicles a year, I think I can appreciate big numbers.

What you apparently can't appreciate is the magnitude of the numbers in relation to the size and nature of the organization.

Waste is waste and bad practice is bad practice. It's not because you have the money that you should invent ways of trying to spend it.
 
Sybarite said:
Perhaps you should pass on the message to the RNLI. Apparently they haven't heard about this yet.

The first Tamar went on station at Tenby in Wales in 2006 and the Tamar class lifeboats will gradually replace the Tyne class.

The last Tyne was built in 1990 and the class will be gradually replaced by the Tamar class.

Source RNLI site.
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I'll flag to them the site needs correcting. The last Tamar, 16-27 was handed over by Babcock in 2013 and allocated to Mumbles. The remaining 17 Tyne stations will receive Shannons, although of course they won't be beach launched. Most of the remaining Tyne stations, like Fleetwood, operate in shallow sandbank areas hence the Shannon is better suited.
 
chanelyacht said:
I'll flag to them the site needs correcting. The last Tamar, 16-27 was handed over by Babcock in 2013 and allocated to Mumbles. The remaining 17 Tyne stations will receive Shannons, although of course they won't be beach launched. Most of the remaining Tyne stations, like Fleetwood, operate in shallow sandbank areas hence the Shannon is better suited.
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Or you get a jet-propelled Vedette NG1 at one third the price.
 
Sybarite said:
If you are going to spend it at least try to do it effectively.
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Exactly, so boats, boathouses, crew kit, training, and building sufficient reserves backup then. Not helicopters for which there is no mandate, and which cannot be relied on - for example, if they operated helicopters and boats you'd complain about duplication, but if they just ran helos, then on days like today, when warnings of triggered lightning grounded SAR flights, there'd be no assets to send to casualties...
 
chanelyacht said:
........they have comparable command and control systems crew safety measures, etc...
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Of course not. It's well known that every time they head out they end up getting lost. And, they just let their crews be thrown around inside the boats. They may not have a clue but luckily, the French are tough!

It's only the English who know anything at all about boat construction. That's why they have the most successful boat building industry in the world.

....


Is that what you want to hear?
 
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Sybarite said:
It's only the English who know anything at all about boat construction. That's why they have the most successful boat building industry in the world.
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I outlined above somewhere what I think the Charity Commission would do with your arguments; if you had the courage to make a complaint that is.

You know, I'd also be a tad cautious with this latest nasty, gloaty argument; anywhere near Merseyside, Tyneside, or Teesside that is.
 
Once again dear Sybarite is being economic with the information

The Vedette NG to which he refers must, perforce, be the Vedette Classe 2 NG which is an inshore / coastal lifeboat (that is the only boat in the SNSM fleet with an "NG" designation as far as I can see)

It is not an All Weather Lifeboat. It is not self righting. It does not have the integrated management systems of the latest RNLI boats. It, in short, is in no meaningful way comparable with Shannon

Shannon is undoubtedly expensive, nobody would argue with that. But as various posters repeatedly point out Shannon is a uniquely capable boat. And that can never be achieved on the cheap without compromise

Happily, through a combination of the equally unique relationship between the British public and the RNLI and the effectiveness of the organisations' find raising operations, the RNLI has no need to compromise on its lifeboats

I for one would care less if Shannon cost double what it costs.

Like I said before but it feel on deaf ears, the lifeboat fleet is the wrong target altogether.

Far more pertinent questions can, and should, be asked about the decisions to close (ostensibly) actively supported stations, to remove the AWB from others and so on.
 
dom said:
You know, I'd also be a tad cautious with this latest nasty, gloaty argument; anywhere near Merseyside, Tyneside, or Teesside that is.
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Or Wearside (always the best, always forgotten grrr!)

In fact, it was precisely the sort of short term, penny pinching, buy it in cheap, don't invest, don't plan for the future attitudes that Sybarite advocates that crucified the British shipbuilding industry (and British industry in general)

I'm delighted therfore that the RNLI has vision and long term commitment to design and build it's lifeboats in house.
 
Bru said:
Once again dear Sybarite is being economic with the information

The Vedette NG to which he refers must, perforce, be the Vedette Classe 2 NG which is an inshore / coastal lifeboat (that is the only boat in the SNSM fleet with an "NG" designation as far as I can see)

It is not an All Weather Lifeboat. It is not self righting. It does not have the integrated management systems of the latest RNLI boats. It, in short, is in no meaningful way comparable with Shannon

Shannon is undoubtedly expensive, nobody would argue with that. But as various posters repeatedly point out Shannon is a uniquely capable boat. And that can never be achieved on the cheap without compromise

Happily, through a combination of the equally unique relationship between the British public and the RNLI and the effectiveness of the organisations' find raising operations, the RNLI has no need to compromise on its lifeboats

I for one would care less if Shannon cost double what it costs.

Like I said before but it feel on deaf ears, the lifeboat fleet is the wrong target altogether.

Far more pertinent questions can, and should, be asked about the decisions to close (ostensibly) actively supported stations, to remove the AWB from others and so on.
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Once again Dear Bru is being economic with the comprehension.

Of course the French don't know how to make a [B]NG1[/B] which is self righting....!!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1...urnement-reussi-pour-la-vedette-flamande_news

What's even worse I already posted this in reply to one of your posts.

You might just compare this with the capsize test of the Shannon to see which rights itself more quickly.

While we are at it you might want to see that the new 58' AWB self rights as well. The test was carried out with the crew in place. At 45' the Shannon is only twice as expensive as this 58' boat which at present costs €1.4m. In the last week they have announced that, with the planning of the outroll of production, they can bring the price down by €200-300k.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3dsj0i

In the video the Director is saying that they are developing a new version of a smaller boat as well.
 
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I can only go by the information I can find on the SNSM website and according to their website there is NO mention of the Vedette Classe2 NG being self righting

The video link you post above will not run but the first line of the descriptive text says "Un canot de sauvetage, destiné à la Belgique..."

So what you have posted is a link to a video of a self righting lifeboat constructed in France BUT DESTINED FOR BELGIUM. Not a link to a French SNSM self righting lifeboat

I leave the panel to draw their own conclusions ...
 
Bru said:
I can only go by the information I can find on the SNSM website and according to their website there is NO mention of the Vedette Classe2 NG being self righting

The video link you post above will not run but the first line of the descriptive text says "Un canot de sauvetage, destiné à la Belgique..."

So what you have posted is a link to a video of a self righting lifeboat constructed in France BUT DESTINED FOR BELGIUM. Not a link to a French SNSM self righting lifeboat

I leave the panel to draw their own conclusions ...
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It's the same boat except for the fact that it's jet-propelled. Who said anything about an NG classe 2 ?

If you would like to see the sweet movement of the pantocarene hull at speed :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL3jp1UhYGQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnO1qOQjECU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE9Df9b-MPg&list=PLfl-vV3xErhevvxy1P4v-itU5cr-280Mi&index=17
(Force 10 in the Bass Straight) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHvb0QJqvbo
 
I've made this point previously so apologies for repeating, but a couple of years back I mentioned these threads to a senior staff member of both the SNSM and French Pilot service (Brittany area).

The SNSM is apparently unaware of this forum (shock and horror!), but he made the point that the OP categorically represents nothing whatsoever about their organisation, their policies, or their attitude to the UK, for which incidentally he expressed a deep admiration.

This admiration is of course mutual amongst serious mariners; for all of us have the deepest of respect for every single man and woman who is prepared to risk their own lives to pull us from peril and for everyone who helps to put them there as safely as is humanly possible

...and that stands no matter what flag happens to be fluttering at the back of their boat.
 
A simple request Sybarite.

Please supply a link, one link to one page with suitable technical information, to the French SNSM boat that you think is capable of meeting the requirement that generated the Shannon design

Because even I am both confused and fed up with chasing around the Internet trying to identify which boats you are referring to and ascertain actual facts about them

For example you referred to a "Vedette NG" and the only reference to a Vedette NG on the SNSM website is to the Vedette Classe 2 NG but you now claim that is not what you were referring to

So what were you referring to?
 
dom said:
I've made this point previously so apologies for repeating, but a couple of years back I mentioned these threads to a senior staff member of both the SNSM and French Pilot service (Brittany area).

The SNSM is apparently unaware of this forum (shock and horror!), but he made the point that the OP categorically represents nothing whatsoever about their organisation, their policies, or their attitude to the UK, for which incidentally he expressed a deep admiration.

.
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I have never indicated anywhere that I speak for the SNSM. You also hinted on an earlier thread that I had said something about the SNSM attitude towards the RNLI.

I denied that and asked you to quote your reference to see if I might have forgotten and had said someting in a particular context. As I do not remember having done so and see no reason whatever why I might have done, so I reiterate my request that you justify your post. This makes the 6th time that I've asked you to justify one allusion, accusation or another - such justification you have never provided.

I have however spoken with the President of the SNSM, Xavier de la Gorce, concerning the respective financial positions of the two organizations. He remarked, tongue in cheek, that with their wealth the RNLI could perhaps give a hand to the relatively young SNSM (est'd 1967) given the number of British boats in French waters. He was about to meet the Minister to see if the state would up its 8% contribution. (Finally, state + local authorities = 18%)
 
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Bru said:
A simple request Sybarite.

Please supply a link, one link to one page with suitable technical information, to the French SNSM boat that you think is capable of meeting the requirement that generated the Shannon design

Because even I am both confused and fed up with chasing around the Internet trying to identify which boats you are referring to and ascertain actual facts about them

For example you referred to a "Vedette NG" and the only reference to a Vedette NG on the SNSM website is to the Vedette Classe 2 NG but you now claim that is not what you were referring to

So what were you referring to?
Click to expand...

http://www.snsm.org/flotte/vedette-v1
http://www.bernard-naval.com/sauve_orc_140_bernad_naval.html

In fact with the Pantocarene hull it is the NG but a mark 2 version is in the wraps.

Insubmersible et autoredressable
L : 14 m – l : 4,60 m (= 46')
Vitesse : 25 nœuds
Puissance : 2 moteurs diesel de 330 cv
Durée de vie : 30 ans
Prix : 800 000 € (= £640,000. (Shannon £2100000)

http://www.snsm.org/page/levolution-de-la-flotte

La série des V1 NG

La série des V1 NG devrait être prolongée, par le lancement d’une nouvelle série de vedettes du type en 2015. Elle bénéficiera également de l’amélioration de certaines caractéristiques fonctionnelles.

The V1 NG is prop driven but the Belgian version has jet drives.

Here is another version of the video which you couldn't open; you can see the jet drives.

http://www.bernard-naval.com/vedette-sauvetage-orc-182.html

It can accommodate 20 persons; beyond that it carries 2 X 100 person rafts.

Just for good measure here is the other yard that builds boats to the Pantocarene design.

http://sibiril-technologies.com/sites/sibiril/files/Articles/sibiril_orc178.pdf

Two yards provide competition and hence tend towards efficiency.
 
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With regards to the original thread all those posts ago.
Peel Ports at Sheerness is moving its VTS control office a hundred miles or so north to Liverpool.
Not sure if they will be using a pair of really impressive binoculars and good loudhailer or merely relying on a few cameras and a VHF link to their Liverpool office to control the commercial traffic on the River Medway and its approaches.?
 
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