The MCA is planning on scaling back the number of marine offices.

[Sybarite]

Cleverly disingenuous again

What they said was that Shannon had been, at that stage, test launched into 2m waves

They did not say that 2m waves were an operational limit nor even that Shannon can only be launched in waves less than 2m

Who is being disingenuous?

I asked the question; that was their response. They did not say "so far" nor did they speak of operational limits although that was what I was trying to get at. My point was that when the weather is at its worst it's highly likely that no lifeboat of any sort can be launched from a beach.

This was pointed out the last time you tried to imply that Shannon is a less capable lifeboat than the cheaper French boats

I never implied that the Shannon is less capable. I said that the French boats performed their function satisfactorily at a fraction of the price of a Shannon.

You had some good and valid points way back in the early days of these repetitive discussions with regard to the sometimes profligate spending on non-core activities (although, as has also been pointed out, the current management and trustees have taken significant steps in that area) but you lose the plot, and any likely support from all but a handful of people, when you repeatedly decry the provision of the best possible kit at the sharp end regardlessv of expense

Is the equipment more expensive because it is better or is it more expensive because they simply allowed the costs to run away through bad project management?

Most RNLI supporters, myself included, are perfectly happy. I don't care if Shannon cost double what it did if the RNLI can afford it. And they can so they should.

And I note you've yet to produce evidence of a cheaper alternative than can do what Shannon does. (You can't, of course, because the beast doesn't exist. That's why the RNLI had to develop Shannon from scratch and that was always going to be an expensive approach.)

The SNSM has jet propelled boats and so have shallow water manouverabilty and they do not need boats launched from beaches. So the Shannon requires a £1.5m trailor (2011 : £850k...) to get launched, and they have tested launches in waves up to 2m.

 

[dogleg]

Who is being disingenuous?

I asked the question; that was their response. They did not say "so far" nor did they speak of operational limits although that was what I was trying to get at. My point was that when the weather is at its worst it's highly likely that no lifeboat of any sort can be launched from a beach.



I never implied that the Shannon is less capable. I said that the French boats performed their function satisfactorily at a fraction of the price of a Shannon.



Is the equipment more expensive because it is better or is it more expensive because they simply allowed the costs to run away through bad project management?



The SNSM has jet propelled boats and so have shallow water manouverabilty and they do not need boats launched from beaches. So the Shannon requires a £1.5m trailor (2011 : £850k...) to get launched, and they have tested launches in waves up to 2m.

Rest assured a Shannon can launch from a beach in almost any conditions certainly over 2m waves: many will launch in any case from sheltered harbours, you certainly know more about accounts than me but I probably know more about lifeboat operations than you

 

[dogleg]

Who is being disingenuous?

I asked the question; that was their response. They did not say "so far" nor did they speak of operational limits although that was what I was trying to get at. My point was that when the weather is at its worst it's highly likely that no lifeboat of any sort can be launched from a beach.



I never implied that the Shannon is less capable. I said that the French boats performed their function satisfactorily at a fraction of the price of a Shannon.



Is the equipment more expensive because it is better or is it more expensive because the<script id="gpt-impl-0.1502037734133183" src="http://partner.googleadservices.com/gpt/pubads_impl_83.js"></script>y simply allowed the costs to run away through bad project management?



The SNSM has jet propelled boats and so have shallow water manouverabilty and they do not need boats launched from beaches. So the Shannon requires a £1.5m trailor (2011 : £850k...) to get launched, and they have tested launches in waves up to 2m.

Ps: I cannot recall any occasion certainly with our neighbouring beach launched stations where their Mersey class lifeboats could not launch from the beach: if a Mersey could do it the Shannon will certainly manage it.

 

[Lucky Duck]

edit - discussed at some length previously in the lounge of all places (page 4 onwards) http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?444586-I-have-to-ask-the-wisdom-of-the-RNLI&highlight=hastings

 

[Sybarite]

Rest assured a Shannon can launch from a beach in almost any conditions certainly over 2m waves: many will launch in any case from sheltered harbours, you certainly know more about accounts than me but I probably know more about lifeboat operations than you

You certainly know more about boats than I do but I know enough to ask questions. Common sense would tell me that during the recent winter storms it would have been impossible to launch a Shannon directly from an exposed beach. Perhaps all the beaches concerned are in sheltered coves? As I say I was trying to have an official view on the operational limits (the term I used in my query) and the 2m wave height was the response I got from the RNLI spokesperson.

 

[chanelyacht]

I know enough to ask questions.

But sadly, not enough to understand the answers.

 

[dogleg]

Having spoken to contacts at 2 nearby Mersey stations, both beach launched the contacts confirm that they have never been unable to launch off their open beaches, both have launched in F8-9 onshore this year. One made the point that even with the previous 8 knot Oakley and before that the non self righting Liverpool they never failed to launch. On a flat beach the wave height is usually not excessive. Both are due to receive Shannons soon and expect the new launching system to easier and quicker, saving the need for men on deck in bad weather to release the launching gear: the Shannon is an all weather lifeboat, that may give a clue. There are no weather launching restrictions issued from HQ for ALB's, it is down to the coxswain at each station whether to launch. There are weather restrictions for inshore boats, although again the decision still rests with the senior helmsman and LOM.

 

[dom]

Having spoken to contacts at 2 nearby Mersey stations, both beach launched the contacts confirm that they have never been unable to launch off their open beaches, both have launched in F8-9 onshore this year. One made the point that even with the previous 8 knot Oakley and before that the non self righting Liverpool they never failed to launch. On a flat beach the wave height is usually not excessive. Both are due to receive Shannons soon and expect the new launching system to easier and quicker, saving the need for men on deck in bad weather to release the launching gear: the Shannon is an all weather lifeboat, that may give a clue. There are no weather launching restrictions issued from HQ for ALB's, it is down to the coxswain at each station whether to launch. There are weather restrictions for inshore boats, although again the decision still rests with the senior helmsman and LOM.

 

[Sybarite]

But sadly, not enough to understand the answers.

Pathetic.

 

[Sybarite]

Having spoken to contacts at 2 nearby Mersey stations, both beach launched the contacts confirm that they have never been unable to launch off their open beaches, both have launched in F8-9 onshore this year. One made the point that even with the previous 8 knot Oakley and before that the non self righting Liverpool they never failed to launch. On a flat beach the wave height is usually not excessive. Both are due to receive Shannons soon and expect the new launching system to easier and quicker, saving the need for men on deck in bad weather to release the launching gear: the Shannon is an all weather lifeboat, that may give a clue. There are no weather launching restrictions issued from HQ for ALB's, it is down to the coxswain at each station whether to launch. There are weather restrictions for inshore boats, although again the decision still rests with the senior helmsman and LOM.

Well that is very good news but, like Doubting Thomas, I would like to see it.

Folks, the 2015 accounts will be out within the next month....!!!

 

[chanelyacht]

Well that is very good news but, like Doubting Thomas, I would like to see it.

Folks, the 2015 accounts will be out within the next month....!!!

Pathetic.

 

[jordanbasset]

Folks, the 2015 accounts will be out within the next month....!!!

In the spirit of helpfulness these are the threads you started about the RNLI accounts for 2014 and 2013
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?430893-RNLI-Draft-2014-Accounts&highlight=RNLI
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?397516-RNLI-2013-accounts-highlights&highlight=RNLI

Some more threads here of a more general nature concerning the RNLI you have posted
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?439784-The-RNLI-apologises&highlight=RNLI
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?376941-Lifeboats-Again&highlight=RNLI
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...s-it-needs-more-economic-boats&highlight=RNLI
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...NLI-donor-I-would-not-be-happy&highlight=RNLI
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?453252-Was-this-appropriate&highlight=RNLI

Hopes this helps you in your future threads to identify issues you have not covered yet, would hate you wasting your time repeating what you have already said

 

[Quandary]

Surely it is possible that Sybarite might have a valid point to make even if his is a voice crying in the wilderness.
There is no doubt that RNLI receive massive funding, to the point where they often can not be bothered to collect small donations of a few hundred pounds per year.
It is also clear that they do spend money in a way that can seem extravagant, a local example is the building in Kyle of Lochalsh just to house a Rib and Land Rover, but then it is probably right that wealthy organizations sponsor some decent architecture. who else has money these days?
It is also possible that their management may have become a bit complacent, basking in the reflected glory of the performance of their volunteers, which as this thread shows, clearly shields them from any criticism, what is so wrong with comparing how it is done elsewhere?
The managers may even be a bit arrogant? the moving of the station in Fife against the wishes and advice of the crew, the local community and the diving clubs which then resulted in enough funding being raised for independent continuation of the abandoned station might be regarded as ill judged, it certainly seemed disrespectful of the guys who manned the boat for decades.
But then, since their funding is so massive what does it matter if management performance is not optimum as long as they continue to provide the volunteers who sponsor their image with what they think they need. If there was some examination or criticism rather than just blind adulation is it possible that the organization might be motivated to examine its practices and perhaps if the performance is not perfect it could be improved, would that be bad?
I know that if I was talking about Islam rather than the RNLI, expressing such doubts would be regarded as heresy punishable by death so perhaps it is as well that Sybarite has chosen a softer target, he does seem to have suffered for it though.
I think though that I have contributed enough cash and time to the RNLI over my lifetime to feel entitled to criticise them if I want to, they were eventually persuaded to take the money we raised so I regard myself as having the same rights as a small shareholder, however the 10% of our estate allocated to them will be directed to feed hungry children who seem to find raising funding much more difficult.

 

[Sybarite]

Surely it is possible that Sybarite might have a valid point to make even if his is a voice crying in the wilderness.
There is no doubt that RNLI receive massive funding, to the point where they often can not be bothered to collect small donations of a few hundred pounds per year.
It is also clear that they do spend money in a way that can seem extravagant, a local example is the building in Kyle of Lochalsh just to house a Rib and Land Rover, but then it is probably right that wealthy organizations sponsor some decent architecture. who else has money these days?
It is also possible that their management may have become a bit complacent, basking in the reflected glory of the performance of their volunteers, which as this thread shows, clearly shields them from any criticism, what is so wrong with comparing how it is done elsewhere?
The managers may even be a bit arrogant? the moving of the station in Fife against the wishes and advice of the crew, the local community and the diving clubs which then resulted in enough funding being raised for independent continuation of the abandoned station might be regarded as ill judged, it certainly seemed disrespectful of the guys who manned the boat for decades.
But then, since their funding is so massive what does it matter if management performance is not optimum as long as they continue to provide the volunteers who sponsor their image with what they think they need. If there was some examination or criticism rather than just blind adulation is it possible that the organization might be motivated to examine its practices and perhaps if the performance is not perfect it could be improved, would that be bad?
I know that if I was talking about Islam rather than the RNLI, expressing such doubts would be regarded as heresy punishable by death so perhaps it is as well that Sybarite has chosen a softer target, he does seem to have suffered for it though.
I think though that I have contributed enough cash and time to the RNLI over my lifetime to feel entitled to criticise them if I want to, they were eventually persuaded to take the money we raised so I regard myself as having the same rights as a small shareholder, however the 10% of our estate allocated to them will be directed to feed hungry children who seem to find raising funding much more difficult.

You might be a small shareholder but you must be a governor in order to vote.

I always wonder that when the little old widow puts her pennies in the box or bequeathes her savings to the RNLi, believing probably that she is helping to pay for a boat, does she understand that more is spent on fund raising than on boats or that the management pension contribution is on a par with boat spend?

 

[Sybarite]

In the spirit of helpfulness these are the threads you started about the RNLI accounts for 2014 and 2013
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?430893-RNLI-Draft-2014-Accounts&highlight=RNLI
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?397516-RNLI-2013-accounts-highlights&highlight=RNLI

Some more threads here of a more general nature concerning the RNLI you have posted
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?439784-The-RNLI-apologises&highlight=RNLI
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?376941-Lifeboats-Again&highlight=RNLI
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...s-it-needs-more-economic-boats&highlight=RNLI
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...NLI-donor-I-would-not-be-happy&highlight=RNLI
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?453252-Was-this-appropriate&highlight=RNLI

Hopes this helps you in your future threads to identify issues you have not covered yet, would hate you wasting your time repeating what you have already said

Thank you very much but in fact you missed the very first one - from July 2004 nearly 12 years ago ! :

Re: French Lifeboats

The RNLI estimates their average launch cost at £5.8k (£2.2k for an inshore boat). Excluding depreciation allocation.

A comparison yields some interesting facts.

RNLI annual operating and boat replacement costs : £ 119 million, SNSM £ 9 million.
Permanent employees RNLI 1105 (of which 26 get paid over £50k) SNSM 40 (including maintenance centre staff at St Malo : 1200 volunteer admin people).
RNLI reserves £472million SNSM ?? 45% funded by donations from the public €5.3 million.

RNLI stations 225 SNSM 232 of which 58 are seasonal.
RNLI launches approx 8000 for 8000 persons assisted. SNSM approx 6000 for 13000.

Makes a contribution (for recovering a boat) good value n'est-ce pas?

Sources : respective official web sites


But don't worry. I will have something new for you in a few weeks time when the 2015 accounts go online.

It's funny though. People appear to be p!$$€d off with me but they must be masochistic because they continue to read my posts. OTOH I have the feeling that those who support me (either on the thread or in PM's) roughly balance with the very much more vociferous ones who criticize my ...(?) persistance. However I am not going to work back over every thread to list the names and so feel free to criticize that as well!

 

[Bru]

If you read back through the annual reports, you'll find that the current executive team have taken significant steps to reduce peripheral expenditure and deal with a previously complacent culture away from the sharp end

No organisation is above criticism and no organisation the size of the RNLI is ever going to be perfect but Sybarite persists in picking the wrong target since he became obsessed with criticising the Shannon project

From a purely financial perspective he is right - Shannon took years to deliver and cost an arm and a leg to develop and each new boat is expensive compared to other lifeboats

But the point he is unable or unwilling to understand is that it doesn't matter. Shannon can do things no other lifeboat can do. That's a fact no matter how hard Sybarite tries to avoid it. No production boat, and nothing in the SNSM fleet, can be beach launched and recovered. Let alone turned around and relaunched in minutes

I for one am delighted that the RNLI has the resources to develop the equipment they need regardless of cost and without compromise.

A far more worthy target of criticism is some of the recent decisions about station closures and relocations which, I have to say, smack of head office bean counting

 

[Sybarite]

But the point he is unable or unwilling to understand is that it doesn't matter. Shannon can do things no other lifeboat can do. That's a fact no matter how hard Sybarite tries to avoid it. No production boat, and nothing in the SNSM fleet, can be beach launched and recovered. Let alone turned around and relaunched in minutes

I am sure that many of the SNSM boats could be beach launched if that were necessary. However there is an excellent coverage without having to use beaches. The SNSM also coordinates closely with the other services especially with helicopters which would most likely be used in places a boat could not get to.

The Shannon also vaunts the use of water jets for shallow water. Our local lifeboat at Locmiquélic has twin jets and a top speed of 30 knots. It is one of 4 or 5 just in the Rade de Lorient. Not counting the RIBs.

However you can have 15 Vedettes N°1 for the price of the 2 Ferraris donated to the RNLI. Or you can have 3 Shannons with their launching trolley.

 

[Tranona]

I always wonder that when the little old widow puts her pennies in the box or bequeathes her savings to the RNLi, believing probably that she is helping to pay for a boat, does she understand that more is spent on fund raising than on boats or that the management pension contribution is on a par with boat spend?

What a load of nonsense. Money spent on fund raising - well - it raises funds in excess of the moneys spent. That money does not come from widows' bequests.

It does not detract one iota from money spent on the service. All bequests are spent on services, not commercial activities. Bequests can be made specific to particular activities if required. If you bothered to understand how the funding worked you would know this and stop making stupid comments.

 

[Bru]

However you can have 15 Vedettes N°1 for the price of the 2 Ferraris donated to the RNLI. Or you can have 3 Shannons with their launching trolley.

We'll have the Shannons thankyou, unlike the French, we can afford them

And once again you're being disingenuous. According to the published specs ,the Vedette Class 1 has a top speed of 25 knots, not 30 and a service speed of 20 knots. It also has a range of operation just 20 miles offshore ...

"These boats from 13.30 to 14.60 meters are unsinkable, and autoredressables for "V1 NG ." They are equipped with two engines of 500 horsepower and reach 22 knots, 25 for "V1 NG". An exception exists to resorts of Antibes and Marseille: ORC 160 which has the same superstructures that ORC 140, but 16 meters; these stars are patented every time. Future replacements canoes all time ( "CTT NG") are also derived since it will CROs 178.R. Two versions exist: a version with jets and propeller version. The oldest is Trévignon , the Ar Beg (SNS 127) in service since 1992, while the latest Sieur de Mons (SNS 162) of Royan was commissioned in 2012 . Their towing capacity is 4 tons . These stars can be used to power nine or forty five knots; so they can get practically any weather . The cost of construction is approximately € 750,000.

• Crew: 6 rescuers.
• Area of intervention: Band 20 miles .
• blue hull (historical color HSB)
• Registration: SNS 1nn. "

(Apologies for the translation, my French is even worse than Google Translates so it's the best I can do!)

Shannon has a top speed of 27 knots and a range of 250NM ... AND CAN BE BEACHED LAUNCHED WHICH IS A CRITICAL REQUIREMENT FOR THE RNLI

Sorry about the captials but you keep on ignoring this as if it doesnt matter and it does

 

[Sybarite]

We'll have the Shannons thankyou, unlike the French, we can afford them

And once again you're being disingenuous. According to the published specs ,the Vedette Class 1 has a top speed of 25 knots, not 30 and a service speed of 20 knots. It also has a range of operation just 20 miles offshore ...

"These boats from 13.30 to 14.60 meters are unsinkable, and autoredressables for "V1 NG ." They are equipped with two engines of 500 horsepower and reach 22 knots, 25 for "V1 NG". An exception exists to resorts of Antibes and Marseille: ORC 160 which has the same superstructures that ORC 140, but 16 meters; these stars are patented every time. Future replacements canoes all time ( "CTT NG") are also derived since it will CROs 178.R. Two versions exist: a version with jets and propeller version. The oldest is Trévignon , the Ar Beg (SNS 127) in service since 1992, while the latest Sieur de Mons (SNS 162) of Royan was commissioned in 2012 . Their towing capacity is 4 tons . These stars can be used to power nine or forty five knots; so they can get practically any weather . The cost of construction is approximately € 750,000.

• Crew: 6 rescuers.
• Area of intervention: Band 20 miles .
• blue hull (historical color HSB)
• Registration: SNS 1nn. "

(Apologies for the translation, my French is even worse than Google Translates so it's the best I can do!)

Shannon has a top speed of 27 knots and a range of 250NM ... AND CAN BE BEACHED LAUNCHED WHICH IS A CRITICAL REQUIREMENT FOR THE RNLI

Sorry about the captials but you keep on ignoring this as if it doesnt matter and it does

There you are getting yourself all in a lather over nothing. If I quote figures it is true that I can make a mistake but I normally try to stand over what I write.

You will notice that I said our local lifeboat; I did not say a V1 lifeboat. I did not say an awb. In fact ours is a reconditionned 1990 model.

"Locmiquelic 2007

Cette vedette totalement revue par la SNSM de Saint Mâlo . Elle est comme " neuve" disent tous les membres du futur équipage. C'est une vedette de 1990, de 9 mètres de long et propulsée par 2 hydrojets Elle peut atteindre 55 km/h soit 30 noeuds. "

Incidentally some of those august members who contributed to the forum in 2001/2 suggested that some of the vast reserves might be better employed in buying helicopters....