The mad dash acoss the Aegean

[DaveRo]

And when it's not down it's sometimes more than 24hrs old. Check that it shows 5 days of forecasts; if not it wasn't updated last night.

For example today:
http://poseidon.hcmr.gr/sailing_forecast.php?area_id=saeg

At the moment that's showing forecasts up to Saturday 28th 1200, which means that the whole set wasn't updated last night and the forecast for today is more than 24hrs old. Earlier this year it failed several days running.

 

[daveg45]

I thought I would resurrect this thread as it seemed to have a fair bit of interest. As an update for those seeking the same information I was, I will give an overview of my experience.

We sailed from Preveza, Kefalonia, Zakinthos round the Peloponnese to Sounion then across to the Cyclades, and then Dodecanese in a 42ft light displacement yacht.

Firstly, far from being a 'coast of passage' the Peloponnese is a very beautiful and fantastic place to sail with the anchorage in the 'caribbean' waters of Elefonisos being one of many notable places.

The Cyclades are varied and such a refreshing change from the chaos of the Ionian and the Dodecanese so far exceeding expectation.


MELTEMI, MELTEMI, MELTEMI!!!........


You can't turn a page in one popular pilot book without this word being mentioned to the point that I wonder if the whole intention is to drive people away...

We have experienced winds gusting an average of 36 to 38 knots anchored at Sounion for a couple of days. Perfectly safe, no drama, just one 20kg anchor, 45m of chain in 8m of water.

We have had winds in the Cyclades in the mid 20's from the NW (no idea if that is a Meltemi) providing some excellent sailing with waves around 1 to 1.5 maybe 2m best described as exhilarating but some of you might want to secure the herb garden in the cockpit!

We had 3 days while winds gusting to force 9 blew through while we sat it out anchored in Partheni on Leros. Again one anchor 40m of chain in 7m of water. We felt completely safe and again no drama.

To be honest I am not sure if the meltemi refers to any wind from the NW that to is created from low pressure that sits over Turkey and the high over norther Greece or it has to reach a specific strength.

What I have experienced is people sat in harbours (mostly private yachties) looking at wind guru and talking of 'strong wind' warnings in perfectly good sailing weather to the point that if you do go sailing there is no hope in hell of you finding a place on a town quay at the end of the day as most said 'yachties' have taken a spot a couple of days before said strong wind warning just in case!. So best advice is find a nice bay not mentioned in said pilot book and tie back to a nice bit of rock. The gullets will point you in the right direction.


So my only conclusion is that most people mooching about the Greek islands don't actually sail (well not in anything above force 3 anyway) and the yachts are little more than floating caravans. There is a lot of posts on here decrying the charter boats as skippered with people of limited experience. I have to disagree as I have found more often than not it is those that leave the harbour and it is only by leaving the harbour and lifting some sailcloth that experience can be gained.

Oh and on a final note. Where are all the Brits then? I think we can count the red dusters on one hand while sailing the past few months.

 

[alexsailor]

Hehe good one.
We sailed around Peloponisos in July and had crazy W wind. In the meantime in Cylades there was SW...

 

[Palarran]

I also spent 2 months and 1550 NM in the Aegean this summer. What an awesome experience. We went from Messolonghi through the canal, on to Marmaris then back around the Peloponnese to Messolonghi. In between we hit many of the Cycladic and Dodecanese islands. In a nut shell it was the best sailing I've ever had. Each week brought about a comment like "This could be the best sail day ever", and then I'd have a better one. Leaving Amorgos heading to Schoinousa we had 40 knot winds sustained and pretty large rollers. Palarran was triple reefed with a hanky of jib and doing 10 to 11 knots just pounding through the waves. It was perfect and we didn't see one other boat sailing that day.

Contrast that with out return around the Peloponnese where as soon as we hit the Ionian the diesels got fired up all day with no wind. I pretty much motored from Limeni back to Messolonghi. My only regret was going to Santorini and staying at the hell hole of a marina there. Avoid it.

 

[vyv_cox]

Oh and on a final note. Where are all the Brits then? I think we can count the red dusters on one hand while sailing the past few months.

That is very often the case. In Leros marina there are far more French than British boats and quite possibly more Italians as well, plus a good sprinkling of Dutch, German, Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian etc. Don't know why that should be. We went the other way this year, now in Saronic.

 

[daveg45]

Yes that has been our experience..... Best sailing we had (well in the med anyway). I have no desire to go back to the Ionian unless it is to continue west.

 

[daveg45]

That is very often the case. In Leros marina there are far more French than British boats and quite possibly more Italians as well, plus a good sprinkling of Dutch, German, Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian etc.

That has been my experience too. Given how much activity there is on this website from Brits I am beginning to wonder if it is populated by armchair sailors!

 

[alexsailor]

That is very often the case. In Leros marina there are far more French than British boats and quite possibly more Italians as well, plus a good sprinkling of Dutch, German, Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian etc. Don't know why that should be. We went the other way this year, now in Saronic.

..and one from Slovenia....

 

[Melody]

Sssh ... Don't tell people it's good sailing in the Aegean. Too many if them will come here.

You can be lucky and not get Meltemi, even in mid-summer, but when it does blow it can be very strong, over 40kts, with a big uncomfortable sea.

 

[daveg45]

I wondered how long it took for the doom mongers to show up.

 

[Melody]

I'm not being a doom-monger. Sorry if it came over that way.

There are probably more weeks in the year when you don't get Meltemi, or when it's not very strong, than when it is really blowing old boots, but some of the posters seemed to imply that it isn't as bad as it's made out to be.

I just wanted to correct that. I live here all the time and have looked at the weather forecast almost every day for the past 14 years so believe I have a more complete picture than someone who has only sailed there for a month or so.

If you're not in a hurry, you're in a private boat, you're competent sailors and don't get sick, there's not really anything to worry about, especially going east or south.

But if you are on a fortnight's charter, where you have to get back north in a set time, and where, as a Greek flagged commercial boat, you can be stopped from leaving port if it's blowing 8 or 9 that's a different matter.

 

[daveg45]

I'm not being a doom-monger. Sorry if it came over that way.

There are probably more weeks in the year when you don't get Meltemi, or when it's not very strong, than when it is really blowing old boots, but some of the posters seemed to imply that it isn't as bad as it's made out to be.

Surely if the Meltemi was as bad as some seem to portray there simply wouldn't be the number of boats out sailing here. That been said to be fair I have to confess I don't see many boats sailing but rather motoring from one harbour to the next regardless if there is wind or not.

I'm not being a doom-monger. Sorry if it came over that way.

I just wanted to correct that. I live here all the time and have looked at the weather forecast almost every day for the past 14 years so believe I have a more complete picture than someone who has only sailed there for a month or so.

Do your observations suggest that this summer has been average then? My experience of other sailors talking about thr weather is they focus on the gusts and then quote that as the wind speed. However wind of force 7 gusting force 9 is not a force 9.

I'm not being a doom-monger. Sorry if it came over that way.


If you're not in a hurry, you're in a private boat, you're competent sailors and don't get sick, there's not really anything to worry about,

As this was posted on a live aboard forum I would have thought that excluded those who where working to a calendar, which I believe is the most dangerous thing on a boat. However, the winds are pretty well forecast a few days in advance so there is plenty of time to get to a safe harbour or anchorage. We are not talking big distances here. Mikonos for example is only what, 80 miles from Aigina?

 

[1bobt]

Surely if the Meltemi was as bad as some seem to portray there simply wouldn't be the number of boats out sailing here. That been said to be fair I have to confess I don't see many boats sailing but rather motoring from one harbour to the next regardless if there is wind or not.



Do your observations suggest that this summer has been average then? My experience of other sailors talking about thr weather is they focus on the gusts and then quote that as the wind speed. However wind of force 7 gusting force 9 is not a force 9.



As this was posted on a live aboard forum I would have thought that excluded those who where working to a calendar, which I believe is the most dangerous thing on a boat. However, the winds are pretty well forecast a few days in advance so there is plenty of time to get to a safe harbour or anchorage. We are not talking big distances here. Mikonos for example is only what, 80 miles from Aigina?

I can remember Melody arriving in Poros about 2000-1with her husband and black dog. If there is anyone who knows this area better than her and her qualified skippers.... I don`t, take heed of her advice, she has boats out on the water for 8 months of the year

 

[vyv_cox]

Surely if the Meltemi was as bad as some seem to portray there simply wouldn't be the number of boats out sailing here. That been said to be fair I have to confess I don't see many boats sailing but rather motoring from one harbour to the next regardless if there is wind or not.

Rod Heikell has written a number of articles about the best way of crossing the Aegean when the meltemi is blowing at its strongest. Are you suggesting that he is exaggerating? We have been berthed in Kithnos and in Mikonos when no boats moved anywhere, in or out, for well over a week. They were the usual mixture of liveaboards, charterers, big motorboats, from a wide variety of nations but all were in full agreement, even though some needed to be back at work.

This year has been an unusual one, for example today, 14th August, when it might be expected that the meltemi would be blasting at full strength through the Cyclades, Poseidon is showing force 4 or less through most of the islands with a maximum of force 6 further east. North-westerly throughout rather than the curve from north-easterly to north-westerly that seems more violent.

 

[daveg45]

Rod Heikell has written a number of articles about the best way of crossing the Aegean when the meltemi is blowing at its strongest. Are you suggesting that he is exaggerating? We have been berthed in Kithnos and in Mikonos when no boats moved anywhere, in or out, for well over a week.

No Vyv I am not suggesting Heinkell is exaggerating (it seems to do so would be almost blasphemous) and I have experienced some strong winds myself from time to time. It is difficult to spend 7 months sailing and not to. But as you did on Kithnos and Mikonos we found shelter and sat it out and lived to tell the tale. It's unfortunate if you were weather bound for over a week but that's the same story the world over and all part of sailing I guess. If people only have a limited time the sensible thing maybe is to beat north during the first part of the trip. I do find the Greek waters pilot to be a somewhat dry read though and have wondered what alternatives are out there.

 

[vyv_cox]

I do find the Greek waters pilot to be a somewhat dry read though and have wondered what alternatives are out there.

We have two of the Captain Elias pilots. Not easy to read or follow and he must be the world's greatest optimist! This year we have tried a few of his more obscure anchorages with limited success. There seem to be few poor ones according to him, whereas at least Rod warns of problems, sometimes erring towards the pessimistic. Capt Elias' weather lore tips are hilarious, rather like the Red Indian sayings used to be in F-troop, if you are old enough to remember that. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Troop for a resume.

Here's one: Teepee never empty when frost on nose of buffalo [pause] It lose in translation

 

[jimbaerselman]

Rod Heikell has written a number of articles about the best way of crossing the Aegean when the meltemi is blowing at its strongest. Are you suggesting that he is exaggerating?

The key words here are "When the meltemi is blowing its strongest". The Admiralty pilot wind frequency circles show how rarely summer winds blow above F7

We have been berthed in Kithnos and in Mikonos when no boats moved anywhere, in or out, for well over a week. They were the usual mixture of liveaboards, charterers, big motorboats, from a wide variety of nations but all were in full agreement, even though some needed to be back at work.

Those may well have been a couple of such rare events. However, there is one misleading effect in some anchorages sheltered from winds. If there's high ground to windward, this catches much faster upper air, which then blasts down the leeward side a good 10kts faster than the area forecast mean wind speeds. The "Vassiliki effect" in S Levkada, beloved of windsurfers! So an area F5 or 6 becomes a F7 to 8 in those "sheltered" anchorages and bays.

Ozzies from the SW are used to big winds. About 8 years ago we met a large rally of about 20 charter boats crewed by clubs from Sydney and Adelaide on 3 or 4 occasions. They were escaping their winter to continue a racing series around the Aegean for a couple of weeks. F7 forecasts didn't put them off one bit, but they did moan about the streams of 40kt winds which were part of the package in localised areas, such as between some islands, downwind of some high ground areas, and around the W side of some high conical islands. We were reasonably comfy in our nice heavyweight 12m, weighing in at 11 tons laden.

Not so comfy for light weight boats under 10m though. I can quite understand if these would aim to give the meltemi a miss.

 

[daveg45]

Ah at last a balanced view. Thank you Jim.

The key words here are "When the meltemi is blowing its strongest". The Admiralty pilot wind frequency circles show how rarely summer winds blow above F7
Those may well have been a couple of such rare events. However, there is one misleading effect in some anchorages sheltered from winds. If there's high ground to windward, this catches much faster upper air, which then blasts down the leeward side a good 10kts faster than the area forecast mean wind speeds. The "Vassiliki effect" in S Levkada, beloved of windsurfers! So an area F5 or 6 becomes a F7 to 8 in those "sheltered" anchorages.

This has certainly been my experience. Sailing in open water with 'clean' smooth air giving a constant 20 to 25 knots of true wind and some great sailing becomes a turbulent mass full of vortices screaming off the cliff edge mountains accelerated by the Venturi effect of apposing valleys bringing gusts of 50% increase in wind strength. The effect clearly visible on the water as you approach the leeward side an island. Beating to windward in such winds is not easy but possible and of course the water is flat. But what exactly do you expect?


So in my view the best place to anchor is behind low lying ground (preferably with rolling hills rather than cliffs) where air in the base layer is less effected by turbulence. Behind high ground especially with a cliff edge mountains and valleys (ie most of the islands) is going to give a rough time. Also it is common sense that waters between neighbouring islands will cause a Venturi effect similar to placing a finger over a hosepipe increase flow (not pressure). If I remember correctly from my hang gliding days the effect of turbulence quadruples as the wind speed doubles so yes, you may have to reef. I have anchored in strong winds in places not even mentioned in the pilot book. The small island of Samiopoula near Samos gets a very cursory mention in The Book and given O for shelter. The wind on the boat tied back to the rocks was maybe 10 knots yet at the beach on the windward side we were playing in 2 meter surf breaking on the beach. A couple of days later while lifting the anchor we drifted into the airflow and bang there was 20 knots right there......perfect. We had the place to ourselves when the tripper boats left at 3pm until 10.30 the next day. Perfect shelter, but the tripper boat captain had already told me that.


I don't know why 'books' need to be written about going west across the Aegean. It just seems to be a matter of common sense.

I cannot remember the last time I had water running down the windward toerail like a river and waves coming right over the sprayhood (I don't mean just a bit of spray). I think that was back in the UK.

 

[vyv_cox]

The key words here are "When the meltemi is blowing its strongest". The Admiralty pilot wind frequency circles show how rarely summer winds blow above F7

I take your point about wind increases downwind of islands but not very many average cruising couples will set off upwind in a F5-6. A different matter for young fit people six or more to a boat that they have chartered.

 

[daveg45]

I take your point about wind increases downwind of islands but not very many average cruising couples will set off upwind in a F5-6. A different matter for young fit people six or more to a boat that they have chartered.

Force 5 is a good day sailing Vyv! In any wind direction. 17 to 21 knots is as good as it gets.

My son is having windsurfing lessons today and tomorrow so unfortunately stuck here until Wednesday when the winds start to drop down towards the naff end of the scale.

Talking to the water sports centre here on Kos while we went for a blast in a hobycat we haven't had a metimi yet this year. Much to their disappointment. So when I hear people worrying about force 5-6 while they put extra lines on and worry about mast collision with neighbouring boats I can't help but wonder what they would do if it did blow strong. Strong being 8 and above and 7 boarder line (for sailing).

Then again looking at the state of some boats I wouldn't go out at all.