The mad dash acoss the Aegean

[vyv_cox]

Force 5 is a good day sailing Vyv! In any wind direction. 17 to 21 knots is as good as it gets.

That's just your opinion, but I know plenty who would disagree. As ever, it isn't the amount of wind that has to be reckoned with, it's the length of fetch and consequent wave height. A force 5 in Leros is always a force 6 or perhaps more between Leros and Levitha, with a fetch that extends almost to Istanbul!

 

[jimbaerselman]

Vyv, Dave,

Points of view on acceptable wind strengths and wave heights are often affected by boat length and displacement differences, modified by how robust your regular crew are.

Sounds like Dave has a robust crew of windsurf jocks. What's the relative size/displacement of your boats?

 

[daveg45]

Vyv, Dave,

Points of view on acceptable wind strengths and wave heights are often affected by boat length and displacement differences, modified by how robust your regular crew are.

Sounds like Dave has a robust crew of windsurf jocks. What's the relative size/displacement of your boats?

So, rather than posting 'strong winds' or, 'blowing old boots' which is a bit vague maybe we could talk of actual true wind trengths. How people can quote wave heights and fetch when tied up in a harbour I don't know.


My crew since May has been my girlfriend who's only prior experience was a month in the Ionian June 2013. It took her a while to understand the importance of stowing things away correctly though as at one point we were down to sharing one glass to drink our wine from as everything else got smashed. Now she feels anything less than 15 knots true is a tad dull. Especially down wind.

The boat is 12.9 meters and 8.5 metric tonns.

 

[Palarran]

Force 5 is a good day sailing Vyv! In any wind direction. 17 to 21 knots is as good as it gets.


Talking to the water sports centre here on Kos while we went for a blast in a hobycat we haven't had a metimi yet this year. Much to their disappointment. So when I hear people worrying about force 5-6 while they put extra lines on and worry about mast collision with neighbouring boats I can't help but wonder what they would do if it did blow strong. Strong being 8 and above and 7 boarder line (for sailing).

Then again looking at the state of some boats I wouldn't go out at all.

I agree with you on the wind strengths and sailing. 20 knots is perfect for me and I enjoy it to 30 knots. 30 to 40 starts getting me anxious and at 45 we douse the sails. I have a pretty big boat though and could see how tiller steering for 8 hours in 20 knots would get tiring. Regardless, the guys on Kos must have been in a mini microcosm for no wind because there sure have been Meltemi's blowing this summer elsewhere in the Aegean.

We took kiteboarding and windsurfing lessons on Kos also and that the time their wasn't any wind. Great guys but that was one screwed up harbor.

 

[vyv_cox]

So, rather than posting 'strong winds' or, 'blowing old boots' which is a bit vague maybe we could talk of actual true wind trengths. How people can quote wave heights and fetch when tied up in a harbour I don't know.


My crew since May has been my girlfriend who's only prior experience was a month in the Ionian June 2013. It took her a while to understand the importance of stowing things away correctly though as at one point we were down to sharing one glass to drink our wine from as everything else got smashed. Now she feels anything less than 15 knots true is a tad dull. Especially down wind.

The boat is 12.9 meters and 8.5 metric tonns.

Surely the point is that not everybody enjoys the same thing. Why do you think you are superior to people who prefer to sail when conditions are more benign? There is a huge variety of sailors, including in the Aegean, many of whom may be older, less agile, perhaps disabled in some way, or just plain don't like a lot of bouncing around. People are there for many different reasons and those who want to blast from Kos to Samothraki in August and those who toddle around the Saronic in May are equally yachtsmen and women, even if some of them stay in port more often.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I agree with you on the wind strengths and sailing. 20 knots is perfect for me and I enjoy it to 30 knots. 30 to 40 starts getting me anxious and at 45 we douse the sails. I have a pretty big boat though and could see how tiller steering for 8 hours in 20 knots would get tiring. Regardless, the guys on Kos must have been in a mini microcosm for no wind because there sure have been Meltemi's blowing this summer elsewhere in the Aegean.

We took kiteboarding and windsurfing lessons on Kos also and that the time their wasn't any wind. Great guys but that was one screwed up harbor.

My god Palarran , that's not a boat you got mate , it a bloody platform . It took me nearly an hour to find your battery
That time you ask me and then another hour to find my way back out , the other half tho I went on holiday

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[daveg45]

Surely the point is that not everybody enjoys the same thing. Why do you think you are superior to people who prefer to sail when conditions are more benign? There is a huge variety of sailors, including in the Aegean, many of whom may be older, less agile, perhaps disabled in some way, or just plain don't like a lot of bouncing around. People are there for many different reasons and those who want to blast from Kos to Samothraki in August and those who toddle around the Saronic in May are equally yachtsmen and women, even if some of them stay in port more often.

Vyv I could not agree more which what your last post.

The problem is that people are subjective and not objective with their information. What is rough for you may not be for me and what is rough for me may be great for someone else. So rather than saying its rough maybe is would be better to say the waves are around 3 metres for example.

Melody was quick to point out that it is often 'blowing old boots' yet there is no mention anywhere on their website about the Meltemi that I could find

1bobt pointed out that melody has been in the Aegean since 2000 and have boats on the water 8 months of the year and seem to be the most knowledgable person he knows on the subject. Yet reading the blog on their sailing website melody is organising a rally to the Dodecanese because as of yet they have NEVER BEEN! ....what, in 14 years?

Sorting the wheat from the chaff is difficult Vyv and all I was trying to do when reviving this post was say that in my experience the Aegean is ok.

I remember my first foray across the English Channel. I was parked in Weymouth after safely rounding Portland Bill, a place I was surely going to die I thought after reading Tom Cunliffe's She'll pilot. An hour later a boat rafts alongside. "I'm leaving early tomorrow" I said. Not sure why I said that but like Pavlov's Dogs when you hers something often enough it becomes an automatic responses!

"Where are you going?" Enquirer the lady of the boat now rafted alongside.

"Cherbourg" I replied with excitement in my voice.

" oh! Have you been before?" She continued "The shipping lanes are very very dangerous you know with all those ships. It is a very busy place. Yes and you must watch out for the French fishing boats, it is very easy to get tangled in the nets. Also the French customs can be very difficult to deal with too. What you are doing is very risky"

"When was the last time you sailed across the Chanel?" I asked now feeling we were making a big mistake and no doubt nervousness in my voice.

She relied "oh...no. No.no, we have never sailed across the channel. We have just popped round from Poole and going back tomorrow!!!"

So Vyv. What in your opinion should I have done with that gem of information I had been given in Weymouth?

 

[bob234]

Force 5 is a good day sailing Vyv! In any wind direction. 17 to 21 knots is as good as it gets.

all.

Viv was talking about setting off in 5-6 which is 17-27 kts. Most would agree that f5 is wonderful.

I have to say that I am now in the group who would no longer set off upwind in 27 kts. I used to enjoy it once but I am too old to find that fun any longer.

I agree with others on here that the meltemi is manageable. But underestimate it at your peril.

 

[daveg45]

Viv was talking about setting off in 5-6 which is 17-27 kts. Most would agree that f5 is wonderful.

I have to say that I am now in the group who would no longer set off upwind in 27 kts. I used to enjoy it once but I am too old to find that fun any longer.

I agree with others on here that the meltemi is manageable. But underestimate it at your peril.

I don't underestimate it but I think it may be misrepresented at times. I only quoted the wind strength for force 5 because any more was superfluous. If you are not going to set off in a force 5 then you are not going to set off in a force 6.

 

[bob234]

I don't know why 'books' need to be written about going west across the Aegean. It just seems to be a matter of common sense.

I don't think anybody said books were written about crossing the Aegean. I think Viv mentioned it had been written about in articles and of course it is in the pilot books where of course you would expect it to be. Hardly the same thing.

I don't find the descriptions of the meltemi to be exaggerated, but it is easy to exaggerate what you hear.

The meltemi can be very 'tasty' down the centre of the Aegean esp Amorgos and northwards and lots of acceleration zones to take account of. That's not to exaggerate the meltemi, merely to point it out but yes, it can 'blow old boots'. For me that's a good way of describing the flavour of it and I don't think it needs to be more specific than that to be useful information. To be forewarned is to be prepared. Better to be pleasantly surprised than the other way around.

 

[bob234]

I don't underestimate it but I think it may be misrepresented at times. I only quoted the wind strength for force 5 because any more was superfluous. If you are not going to set off in a force 5 then you are not going to set off in a force 6.

But setting off in force 5 is a different thing to setting off in force 5-6.

 

[Melody]

Melody was quick to point out that it is often 'blowing old boots' yet there is no mention anywhere on their website about the Meltemi

No, there's no mention of the Meltemi because our website is for the sailing school and we teach in the Saronic and Argolic Gulfs. They're normally sheltered from the Meltemi and so are suitable for novice sailors. If we tried to run a Competent Crew course in a place that got hit by the Meltemi we could put some people off sailing for life!

The Meltemi doesn't affect the whole of the Aegean - it's mainly the central area - but we look at the weather forecasts for the whole of Greece to get a fuller picture of what's happening so we usually know when the Meltemi is blowing. There's been very little so far this year.

We run trips twice a year to the Cyclades Islands, which are prone to Meltemi. We run these as mile-builders and they typically do about 350-400nm in a week. We take 50ft boats and a crew of 6, working in 3 watches. The trips are in Spring and Autumn so outside the main Meltemi season but they still get some days of F7-F8, with gusts of over 40 knots and 3m waves. It's fine for those boats and crew as that's what they come for but wouldn't be pleasant for a couple in a small boat.

Our instructors go to the Cyclades with other people on their boats at least 2 or 3 times a year and we keep in touch with them and my personal experience of the Meltemi is from when we've been sailing privately, including spending most of two years on board. I probably have more experience than many but there are bound to be others who know more than I do. Our cruising area in the UK was the West Highlands and it can be a bit windy and choppy there too. It's a different kind of unpleasant sea in the Aegean - much more uncomfortable in my opinion.

There are certain places where the Meltemi blows more fiercely, such as to the north of Mykonos, around Andros and Tinos, the bottom and east coast of Evia, between Ios and Santorini. But it doesn't blow all the time and you could easily spend a season, such as this one, and not be subject to it, depending where you are. When it next blows I'll try to post a weather chart to show you.

melody is organising a rally to the Dodecanese because as of yuet they have NEVER BEEN! ....what, in 14 years?

No, never been to the Dodecanese. You have to remember we're not liveaboards any more and haven't been for the past 12 years. We're running a business in the Athens area. I don't suppose every sailing school owner in the Solent has sailed everywhere in the UK either, so I don't see why it's that strange.

We've sailed in every other area of Greece, I believe, including many out of the way places, but never made it to the Dodecanese. We were due to head down there the year we decided to open our school so had to change our plans.

Unfortunately it's a little too far to nip over on one of our boats for a week's holiday and we don't get much personal sailing in these days ... hence the October trip which we're going to do on yachts we charter from Kos. I wouldn't claim to know anything about the weather there, apart from what I've read, but this thread was about crossing the Aegean. I think once you're in the Dodecanese you're out of the main Meltemi path again but I could be wrong.

 

[daveg45]

[


No, never been to the Dodecanese. You have to remember we're not liveaboards any more and haven't been for the past 12 years. We're running a business in the Athens area. I don't suppose every sailing school owner in the Solent has sailed everywhere in the UK either, so I don't see why it's that strange.

We've sailed in every other area of Greece, I believe, including many out of the way places, but never made it to the Dodecanese. We were due to head down there the year we decided to open our school so had to change our plans.

Unfortunately it's a little too far to nip over on one of our boats for a week's holiday and we don't get much personal sailing in these days ... hence the October trip which we're going to do on yachts we charter from Kos. I wouldn't claim to know anything about the weather there, apart from what I've read, but this thread was about crossing the Aegean. I think once you're in the Dodecanese you're out of the main Meltemi path again but I could be wrong.[/QUOTE]

How far from the Dodecanese do you think you are Melody? I have known people to charter out of Athens and do the trip on a weeks holiday! .. You are experienced and capable sailors are you not? I sure hope your prospective customers don't read this thread .....Right...it's time to wrap this thread up...It is turning into complete and utter *******s!

 

[Palarran]

Dave, with all due respect, it is time to wrap it up for you because your posts are really out of line.

 

[daveg45]

I am sorry Melody but I just could not let this one go. You are correct, this thread was about crossing the Aegean, which from your own admission is something you have not done so what makes you an expert on the subject? We can all look at forecasts. We don't even need to be in Greece to to it. Re read you own post and ask yourself if it holds any credibility from a readers point if view! One thing I am sure about it will never make it to your own web page!


The RYA is run very similar to PADI diving schools which is an acronym for 'Put Another Dollar In!'

 

[Palarran]

Right...it's time to wrap this thread up...It is turning into complete and utter *******s!

Dave, with all due respect, it is time to wrap it up for you because your posts are really out of line.

I am sorry Melody but I just could not let this one go. You are correct, this thread was about crossing the Aegean, which from your own admission is something you have not done so what makes you an expert on the subject? We can all look at forecasts. We don't even need to be in Greece to to it. Re read you own post and ask yourself if it holds any credibility from a readers point if view! One thing I am sure about it will never make it to your own web page!


The RYA is run very similar to PADI diving schools which is an acronym for 'Put Another Dollar In!'

Couldn't help yourself?????? Give it a break because your posts sound completely foolish.

 

[bob234]

I am sorry Melody but I just could not let this one go. You are correct, this thread was about crossing the Aegean

No it wasn't just about that. It was about the meltemi in relation to crossing the Aegean.

The Dodecanese are well outside the meltemi area so you don't need to have been there to experience the meltemi. But you do need to have been to the Cyclades which Melody explained they have done privately. Nor has Melody claimed to be an expert. Someone else said that of them.

By the way, before you completely run out of wine glasses have you considered storing everything yourself before setting off, rather than blaming inexperienced crew?

 

[daveg45]

Dave, with all due respect, it is time to wrap it up for you because your posts are really out of line.

Pararran I admit that some of my posts may have been a bit inflammatory and to some extent in the interest of debate I played devils advocate. However judging by the number of views this threat has been followed with interest and I hope it has gone some way to answer questions others may have regarding sailing in the Aegean.

 

[Melody]

How far from the Dodecanese do you think you are Melody? I have known people to charter out of Athens and do the trip on a weeks holiday! .. You are experienced and capable sailors are you not?

Yes we are, but we're not the sort of sailors to want to rush over to the Dodecanese and back in a week just so we can say we've been there.

We prefer to take our time and get to know places. Ideally I'd choose to go to the Dodecanese for a month or more but at least the way we're doing it in October we'll be able to spend the whole week sailing there rather than a couple of days each way getting there and back.

I don't know why you are being quite so offensive. Have you had a dispute with the RYA or something in the past? If so, please don't take it out on me. I was just trying to be helpful.

 

[1bobt]

Pararran I admit that some of my posts may have been a bit inflammatory and to some extent in the interest of debate I played devils advocate. However judging by the number of views this threat has been followed with interest and I hope it has gone some way to answer questions others may have regarding sailing in the Aegean.

This is what I said
I can remember Melody arriving in Poros about 2000-1with her husband and black dog. If there is anyone who knows this area better than her and her qualified skippers.... I don`t, take heed of her...

See this area, not another!!!!. and Mike one of the best skipper around

As it happens I spent 10 years prior, in and around the Dodecanese, Turkey and have met your type ,though mostly a Yachtmaster on a charter boat in trouble.