The Law of Tonnage

[Portland Billy]

Some of the most arrogant seafarers I have met have been US limited tonnage masters. They seem to live in a world far more dramatic than mine - UK master of sixty years worldwide seafaring.
Now wonderfully retired!

 

[Uricanejack]

The document you refer to is dated 2001. Its main argument is the uncertainty about the identity of the vessel replying on the VHF. It clearly predates AIS, which has removed most of that uncertainty.
In my experience all professional mariners have reacted positively when I had reason to call them on VHF.
If you want the most striking illustration of the value and the importance of VHF communications, sail to the Veerhaven, the small marina in the centre of Rotterdam. Going up the Nieuwe Waterweg, you are required to listen and respond to the traffic controllers in the harbour. Yes, it could all be done relying on just the colregs but with far greater risk of confusion and collisions.
Pretending in 2020 that all the data we have is an echo on a radar screen may be ok for educational purposes, in a real world situation you would be foolish not to use the possibilities with which technological progress provides us.

I just made use of google.

MGN 324 from 2016 has a section devoted to VHF & AIS refers to the same judgement with additional incidents and pretty much the same conclusion and warnings about the dangers of using VHF for collision avoidance.

MGN 324 indicates the introduction of AIS has been considered with the conclusion. The MCA still frowns upon the use of VHF for collision avoidance.

 

[rotrax]

They may well frown, but it appears to be an established practice.

Every time First Mate and I cross the E/W and W/E shipping lanes in the Channel we hear ships talking, oftem ending with " OK, I pass astern. " or similar.

While crossing at about 7 Knots while motorsailing a small green ship turned parallel to our course, made another course change which alarmed me. I called him on the VHF to ask his intentions only for him to say " Whats your problem - you have over a cable clearance! "

It all seemed a bit close to me.

The septics do seem a bit precious. Even Charter Fishing skippers like to be called ' Captain '

My normal bloke here in NZ is called Mitch..........................

 

[GHA]

The document you refer to is dated 2001. Its main argument is the uncertainty about the identity of the vessel replying on the VHF. It clearly predates AIS, which has removed most of that uncertainty.

If it's what the MCA say then a moment on google will actually show different -
MGN 324 (M+F) Amendment 1 Watchkeeping Safety – VHF Radio & AIS
2017.

Which doesn't say don't use VHF, just try not to. IRPCS generally is fine, pilotage waters not so much, often thames estuary etc you'll hear "happy green to green Jimmy?"

Although the use of VHF radio may be justified on occasion as a collision avoidance aid, the provisions of the Collision Regulations should remain uppermost
• There is no provision in the Collision Regulations for the use of AIS information therefore decisions should be taken based primarily on visual and/or radar information

That's what the MCA say anyway.
I can't actually remember ever calling up a ship, though must have done.
Each to their own.

 

[PilotWolf]

Some of the most arrogant seafarers I have met have been US limited tonnage masters. They seem to live in a world far more dramatic than mine - UK master of sixty years worldwide seafaring.
Now wonderfully retired!

Having worked with a fair few I can confirm that! some very good ones though.

W.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The only time I’ve called a ship recently was when crossing the channel and motor sailing with a very gentle beam reach. I was on port tack heading north from France when a medium merchant ship on my starboard side showed as getting within a cable or two. He couldn’t see my motor sailing cone as it was hidden behind the Genoa (I wonder if he could have seen it through binoculars even without the Genoa at the several miles we were separated) so I called him to admit we were motor sailing and I was going to alter to starboard to allow him to stand on. He very politely thanked me for my honestly and understanding.

AIS told me who he was to me and who I was to him.

 

[dom]

The only time I’ve called a ship recently was when crossing the channel and motor sailing with a very gentle beam reach. I was on port tack heading north from France when a medium merchant ship on my starboard side showed as getting within a cable or two. He couldn’t see my motor sailing cone as it was hidden behind the Genoa (I wonder if he could have seen it through binoculars even without the Genoa at the several miles we were separated) so I called him to admit we were motor sailing and I was going to alter to starboard to allow him to stand on. He very politely thanked me for my honestly and understanding.

AIS told me who he was to me and who I was to him.

I think most ships consider yachts to be fundamentally unpredictable and best afforded a wide berth!

This was a case where a call was very wise in circumstances where you were choosing not to stand on.

 

[PilotWolf]

I've never wanted o be call Captain, use my name! The only time I've expected formally of any sort was when officials, especially abroad were on board. Even then I didn't expect to be called Captain.

But the one, very much a fishing term, I hated was Skip -Skipper was fine but not the shorten version.

In the UK we used to list Master, Mate, etc as they're pretty much reconsiziwd worldwide but don't infer any qualification they person has. But when you driving a 25 ton water taxi...yes I guess legally you're the captain but expecting to be called it?! Especially by people in the industry, it's one thing if a MOP does.

W.

 

[westhinder]

If it's what the MCA say then a moment on google will actually show different -
MGN 324 (M+F) Amendment 1 Watchkeeping Safety – VHF Radio & AIS
2017.

Which doesn't say don't use VHF, just try not to. IRPCS generally is fine, pilotage waters not so much, often thames estuary etc you'll hear "happy green to green Jimmy?"

So the MCA have inched closer to the 21st century.
I agree with you that IRPCS will always remain the basic law that governs how ships should behave, obviously. I do find it a bit of a non-argument to give three examples of situations that went wrong in which VHF played a part, when no doubt there are many more cases where correct use of VHF prevented a dangerous situation developing in the first place. But I suppose a warning was due.
On the rare occasions I have called a ship I have always been treated correctly. Ship’s officers seem to appreciate it if they know our intentions.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I think most ships consider yachts to be fundamentally unpredictable and best afforded a wide berth!

Perhaps that's one of the reasons I keep banging on about obeying the rules and stop people pretending that by their version/interpretation of 'I avoid everything' that they are helping. The rules make for predictability but still allow for when vessels are unpredictable. The latter makes for hard work for bridgewatchkeepers so why muck people around and make them exasperated.

 

[Refueler]

I think most ships consider yachts to be fundamentally unpredictable and best afforded a wide berth!

This was a case where a call was very wise in circumstances where you were choosing not to stand on.

Confused by this bit ...

If he's motor-sailing on a north course ... and the ship is approaching from stbd - westward course ... he is required to alter to stbd to let the ship pass as ship is stand on vessel.

 

[Refueler]

Perhaps that's one of the reasons I keep banging on about obeying the rules and stop people pretending that by their version/interpretation of 'I avoid everything' that they are helping. The rules make for predictability but still allow for when vessels are unpredictable. The latter makes for hard work for bridgewatchkeepers so why muck people around and make them exasperated.

If the yottie flaffs about - I agree ... BUT if one party makes BOLD and CLEARLY seen manoeuvre - no-one is mucked around or exasperated.

 

[Uricanejack]

Perhaps that's one of the reasons I keep banging on about obeying the rules and stop people pretending that by their version/interpretation of 'I avoid everything' that they are helping. The rules make for predictability but still allow for when vessels are unpredictable. The latter makes for hard work for bridgewatchkeepers so why muck people around and make them exasperated.

For the most part I agree,
Open water, Certainly I agree.

The video was in New York harbour, Hudson River.
Given the location, as a busy harbour, river with heavy traffic.
I generally agree with the video. With some minor reservations about terminology.

Sometimes common sense is warranted. The appropriate use of common sense, is compliant with the rules. Is not confusing, And is much appreciated.

I don’t sail or know the New York or South Hampton,
I do sail in an area with locations which may be comparable including, Open water, TSS, Narrow Channels, Harbours, Roadsteads, A River or two and lots of very busy ferry terminals.
Most of where I sail is covered by VTS.

I find complying with the rules while maintaining radio silence works well.
I do listen in. Particularly when using one of the Pass’s or Passing a Ferry Terminal.

When appropriate , I use common sense, Followed with common courtesy, a friendly wave is usually returned.

Recollections from my time spent on the other side of the fence.
A quote “Allways expect, the unexpected“ from, the tv series Kung Fu.
Erratic behaviour was routinely expected or anticipated, Oh well what can you do, deal with it and move on.
Complaince, with the rules a pleasant surprise, in open water, much appreciated.
An early substantial alteration departing from the rules, open water, Sometimes you just go Hmmm? oh well it all works out, you move on.

Stand on, maintain course. in restricted waters. Impeded, Oh well what can you do, deal with it and move on. At least it’s predictable .

Common sense and courtesy applied appropriately by small vessel, very much appreciated and courtesy always acknowledged or returned.

 

[rotrax]

Interestingly enough, the EU's inland waterways require a special Radio channel for communication between bridges, locks and vessels.

Probably the most congested and busy waters in Europe!

 

[Uricanejack]

Interestingly enough, the EU's inland waterways require a special Radio channel for communication between bridges, locks and vessels.

Probably the most congested and busy waters in Europe!

The use of VHF for communication on inland waterways is quite important.
I would say it clearly makes a huge improvement in collision avoidance in these particular circumstance. AIS has improved things even more.
It may work well, on inland waters, in harbours, narrow channels. Even the MCA acknowledges it can be helpful in pilotage areas.
This does not mean it is a good idea every where else.

The risk are not just identifying the other vessel. The risks still include, ineffective communication, miss understandings, departures from the rules.

 

[dom]

Perhaps that's one of the reasons I keep banging on about obeying the rules and stop people pretending that by their version/interpretation of 'I avoid everything' that they are helping. The rules make for predictability but still allow for when vessels are unpredictable. The latter makes for hard work for bridgewatchkeepers so why muck people around and make them exasperated.

Didn’t you hear about John O’Day(?), who Stood on Enforcing his Right of Way .....or something like that. Not sure what happened but I think he sank.

The moral of the story is that yotties should mimic those little neon fish darting around dentist fish tanks. Did you ever hear of a neon being run over by a supertanker? And neons don’t follow IRPCS!
QED

But of course you’re right, such as for example a nice crisp illegal alteration to stbd by a stand-on yacht, which can place it in mortal danger if the ship has already commenced a stbd turn. Compounded if the yacht slows. Dangerous and irritating for ships.

 

[GHA]

Didn’t you hear about John O’Day(?), who Stood on Enforcing his Right of Way .....or something like that. Not sure what happened but I think he sank.

That was because he was a feckin wafi idiot who didn't know or understand the IRPCS. He wasn't right, dead right as he carried along.

I suspect the 'might is right' brigade more often than not don't actually do anything against the rules and think the rules are much more restrictive than they really are.

 

[PilotWolf]

That was because he was a feckin wafi idiot who didn't know or understand the IRPCS. He wasn't right, dead right as he carried along.

I suspect the 'might is right' brigade more often than not don't actually do anything against the rules and think the rules are much more restrictive than they really are.

I'm a lowly captain but I want you to follow the rules - that means I know what you're going to do

If you call me and we agree something different that's fine - especially as here on the VTS channel as its recorded if the poop hits the spinning thing

But the biggest issue is vessel of whatever size not following the rules, I had many 'debates' about this in my previous company with captains arguing because we were high speed and manouverablity was good we should give way. Most could not understand that this was not what the ships officers and pilots were not expecting.

W.

 

[dom]

That was because he was a feckin wafi idiot who didn't know or understand the IRPCS. He wasn't right, dead right as he carried along.

I suspect the 'might is right' brigade more often than not don't actually do anything against the rules and think the rules are much more restrictive than they really are.

That's the one! Though you may be surprised as to the actions of the 'Might is Right' brigade; I was.

Here's a question for ship masters on here taken from a major shipping co.'s training vid. You are OOW and spot a yacht travelling at 6kts at 90 Deg off your stbd bow, distance 3 miles. Your speed is 15kts STW, CPA 50m, TCPA in about 11m.

Is the yacht stand on yet? Almost certainly. What do you do? Alter to port and the yacht can do what she likes with no possible contact point. Alter to stbd (better under IRPCS) to go astern of the yacht by say 0.5m. Trouble is, unable to resolve your actions the yacht might panic and turn sharply to stbd putting herself directly beneath your bows in the mistaken belief you will pass ahead. Or she might panic and alter hard to port in the erroneous belief she will somehow manage to clear your stern. That second option is captured on one of their bridge cams, resulting in a closing speed of 20kts+ and a very lucky escape for the yacht.

This company's approach is that yachts are more often than not capricious clowns which should not be relied upon to do anything correctly, including responding to urgent VHF calls. Best to keep out of their way where possible. One French master commented that they have 'eco-ducts' over motorways in France for wildlife to safely traverse. He wondered as to the feasibility of a 'yacht duct' over the Straights of Dover! ?

Their advice is unambiguous: follow the IRPCS for everyone's safety, most strikingly the yacht's. DO NOT cook it up as you go along. Else, stay well away from busy shipping routes and by that they mean by that at least 4 miles at all times.

 

[Uricanejack]

Pretty much a no brainer. comply as required.

lots of things might happen, The yacht might, disappear, get abducted by aliens, spontaneously combust, get hit by a meteorite, get hit by lightening, not comply with the rules or just possibly comply as required.
No point worrying about what might happen, until it does