The ideal blue water yacht

[Poignard]

I think we can all think of situations and examples where a particular hull construction and design might fail. It’s the fact that there’s no such thing as the perfect boat and that all boats are a compromise that should keep discussions on this topic interesting. It’s the failure of the occasional person to acknowledge this simple fact that makes discussion abrasive and so divided.

Yes, and we in this safety conscious age should not lose sight of the fact that most of the finest voyages in the history of yacht sailing have been made in boats that would nowadays be considered completely unsuitable and inadequately equipped.

 

[Poignard]

Oi! Halberg! Here's my Oyster, note being sailed!
View attachment 103647

And overtaking the schooner to weather.

Difference in displacement between 'local cruising' and Full Monty ocean crossing mode is about 800 Kg.

What is that beautiful schooner to windward?

 

[rogerthebodger]

Yes, and we in this safety conscious age should not lose sight of the fact that most of the finest voyages in the history of yacht sailing have been made in boats that would nowadays be considered completely unsuitable and inadequately equipped.

Yes life was a lot cheaper then and there was little of no communications then

Look up post office tree Mossel Bay

en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Post_Office_Tree

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

Difference in displacement between 'local cruising' and Full Monty ocean crossing mode is about 800 Kg.

That's strange, I am sure that according to the manual, the difference is only about 130kg.

 

[Neil_Y]

Any boat is OK, just look after the boat and it will look after you.

 

[RJJ]

The thing about respect is that it has to be earned. His comments about boats others use to fulfil their own dreams/ambitions mean it is difficult for some to afford respect to some one so vocal in his criticism of other's choices

I can absolutely respect coopec for trying what he's trying. The last boat I tried to build was a remote controller when I was 14, and she sank. Maybe I should have kept trying to build boats. Maybe a more practical decision, for me, was to get a job and buy a boat built by someone else.

I can respect him even more when he launches his boat and proves her / his capabilities. But even then he won't have "earned" the right to disparage mine and others' choice of boat in the sweeping terms he has tended to use.

 

[coopec]

Am I the only one who thinks that sarcasm is never a good thing in a discussion.

To answer your question about GRP. Have you seen the videos of a GRP yacht being sailed at full speed into various solid obejects?

I thought Buck Turgidson was being sarcastic when he said ""You know there is coral in the Caribbean right?" I had posted a map of coral occurrences around the world just a few comments back!!

I suggest that comment was meant to be insulting.

 

[capnsensible]

I thought Buck Turgidson was being sarcastic when he said ""You know there is coral in the Caribbean right?" I had posted a map of coral occurrences around the world just a few comments back!!

I suggest that comment was meant to be insulting.

Ive been lucky enough to have sailed in lots of corally places in plastic boats. So far, so good. On a passage that included a pit stop in Nuku Hiva en route to Tahiti, we had a chance at another brief pause in the Timmodoodahs but it was honking with rain. However the owner, a Kiwi, had a plan to spend a season in Tahiti and visit the atolls. Sounds good to me.
The owner bought the boat in Greece. Sailed it for a couple of seasons and sailed it to the Canaries. A friend of mine took the boat to Antigua, I joined him there and we then took the boat to Tahiti. As you do. Not bad for a Bavaria 46.
Now my earlier rhetorical question was about antipodes so buying boats in Europe and sailing them homeward. I've seen this a lot from strategic waypoints in Gibraltar and the Canaries. I've taken another yacht from the Canaries to Pacific Panama for a Dink. Shock horror, a Bavaria 44.
So yeah, full marks for building your own boat, but hey, far more plastic boats are out there doing it for real than you probably ever imagined.
Safe sailing! ?

 

[coopec]

No ridiculeling from me. However I do object to people making sweeping generalisations about the unsuitability of other peoples boats or their designs or features such as ‘fin keels’ or ‘constructed of grp’ for ocean sailing.

I am not "making sweeping generalisations about the unsuitability of other peoples boats" as everyone will have different requirements in boating.

But are "other people's boats" all "Blue Water yachts"? Of course not!

Many times I've read articles in the magazines (Offline/online) on the "Ideal Blue Water Yacht" and the author has based his conclusion on a survey on yachts that has crossed an ocean. Other people posting here have pointed out that yachtsmen will take off with what they've got.

I suggest the survey of cruising yachties of what they consider a Blue Water yacht gives a more realistic and truer result. (they have been there/done that)

 

[coopec]

Ive been lucky enough to have sailed in lots of corally places in plastic boats. So far, so good. On a passage that included a pit stop in Nuku Hiva en route to Tahiti, we had a chance at another brief pause in the Timmodoodahs but it was honking with rain. However the owner, a Kiwi, had a plan to spend a season in Tahiti and visit the atolls. Sounds good to me.
The owner bought the boat in Greece. Sailed it for a couple of seasons and sailed it to the Canaries. A friend of mine took the boat to Antigua, I joined him there and we then took the boat to Tahiti. As you do. Not bad for a Bavaria 46.
Now my earlier rhetorical question was about antipodes so buying boats in Europe and sailing them homeward. I've seen this a lot from strategic waypoints in Gibraltar and the Canaries. I've taken another yacht from the Canaries to Pacific Panama for a Dink. Shock horror, a Bavaria 44.
So yeah, full marks for building your own boat, but hey, far more plastic boats are out there doing it for real than you probably ever imagined.
Safe sailing! ?

I was very surprised at the number of wrecks I saw when I flew from Fiji to Kiribati. Of course I don't know their construction but it is obvious that coral waters can be unforgiving. I've got photos of many of the wrecks (one looked like a ship). Is this one a wreck?

 

[john_morris_uk]

I was very surprised at the number of wrecks I saw when I flew from Fiji to Kiribati. Of course I don't know their construction but it is obvious that coral waters can be unforgiving. I've got photos of many of the wrecks (one looked like a ship). Is this one a wreck?

View attachment 103676

If you ever get the chance to sail the N Cornish Coast and visit Padstow, you'll notice numerous wrecks on the chart. As you enter the harbour that's near the entrance to the River Camel, you'll pass over Doom Bar. Most wrecks on Doom Bar aren't marked on the chart as there're over 200 of them! Even the lifeboat station with it's local 'map of wrecks' says "and over 200 wrecks' when it gets to Doom Bar.

I'm not sure that looking at historic wrecks tells us very much about boat design and construction except what an unforgiving place the sea is.

PS There's a very nice draught beer named after Doom Bar.

PPS I once spent a week holed up in Padstow as gale after gale blew through the Bristol Channel. I stuck our nose out a couple of times, but we turned tail and headed back for shelter pretty quickly when we saw the sea state.

 

[coopec]

I disagree. I have personally commented at how well Coopecs boat looks. But i am getting a bit fed up with his trolling posts telling us all how great his boat is and being rude and sarcastic to anyone who disagrees with him.

Where have I ever been "telling us all how great his boat is"?

There are many sorts of yachts (design/construction material/size) are they all "Blue Water Yachts"?

I suggest the only people who can answer the question "What is a Blue Water Yacht" are people who have had hands on experience.

The makings of a bluewater boat
April 27, 2018
Knowing very little about what we were embarking on, we joined the Bluewater Cruising Association and asked as many people as we could about what we should be looking for in an offshore yacht. In the Pacific Northwest, the consensus seemed to be that the “bluewaterness” of an offshore yacht boiled down to six main elements: a long keel, a skeg-hung rudder, heavy displacement, reputable offshore builder, large water and diesel tanks, and a cutter rig or ketch design.

The makings of a bluewater boat - Ocean Navigator

I am very surprised that a ketch rig would be considered "desirable" attribute.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Where have I ever been "telling us all how great his boat is"?

There are many sorts of yachts (design/construction material/size) are they all "Blue Water Yachts"?

I suggest the only people who can answer the question "What is a Blue Water Yacht" are people who have had hands on experience.

The makings of a bluewater boat
April 27, 2018
Knowing very little about what we were embarking on, we joined the Bluewater Cruising Association and asked as many people as we could about what we should be looking for in an offshore yacht. In the Pacific Northwest, the consensus seemed to be that the “bluewaterness” of an offshore yacht boiled down to six main elements: a long keel, a skeg-hung rudder, heavy displacement, reputable offshore builder, large water and diesel tanks, and a cutter rig or ketch design.

The makings of a bluewater boat - Ocean Navigator

That'll be the article where the authors were suckered into the traditional line of approach. (Long keel, rudder protected by the keel or by a full skeg, etc etc) but actually went out and bought a fin keeled cruiser racer and then discovered that it carried them safely across the oceans and they ought to have not worried about it as much as they were led to believe they should?

We began to ask questions. “Do we really need a full keel?” “Can we get by with a spade rudder?” In the end, we went with a boat that met some of the requirements but not all. We settled on a Dufour 35, built in 1979. It had a solid fiberglass hull and a rudder protected but not hung by a skeg. The boat was billed as a racer-cruiser when it came off the assembly line; as such, the tankage was minimal, she doesn’t have a full keel and isn’t a cutter. She also has a balsa-core deck to save on weight, something John Neal says to be careful of. We were emboldened by the report that many others had sailed around the world in this model of boat and she did appear in John Neal’s list of acceptable offshore boats, although without glowing remarks.

So they showed themselves that the so called 'consensus' had been wrong and out of date?

 

[coopec]

So they showed themselves that the so called 'consensus' had been wrong and out of date?

Well the article looks to be recent.

The makings of a bluewater boat - Ocean Navigator
www.oceannavigator.com › the-makings-of-a-bluewate...

Apr 27, 2018 — A slight majority of the boats had spade rudders (52 percent). The rest had skeg-hung (27 percent) or attached (21 percent) rudders. In 2017, five of the boats in this study developed rudder issues during the crossing.

 

[geem]

I had a trawl around the internet to see if there was a consensus as to what defines a bluewater boat. There isnt.
The opinions on what makes a bluewater boat revolves around what people have. Somebody with a long keel boat will tell you a bluewater boat must have a long keel. Somebody with a Bavaria will tell you they make a fine bluewater boat and they get sailed to the Pacific regularly so they must be good. My own view is that anything that gives you confidence to cross oceans not once but regularly is a bluewater boat. If you keep doing it in the same boat you are either mad or happy with your boat?
My own bluewater spec boat is founded around the fact that we sail as a husband and wife team. With that in mind we need a boat that is easily sailed short handed. For this we need a reliable below decks autopilot that will steer in any weather. This is our third crew member and must work. In addition we want reliable wind self steering. In my opinion the two systems compliment each other, its not a choice of one or the other.
On ocean crossing we dont want a deck full of cargo. We want space to stow as much as possible below decks. With this in mind we want large deck locker space for wet stuff. We want large tankage for fuel and water. Carrying rows of fuel cans on deck like we often see on boats without adequate tankage doesnt, in my mind, define a bluewater boat.
We want lots and lots of space for stowage. Living aboard full time is a totally different use of our boat compared to UK weekend and holiday sailing. We carry far more spares and tools, clothes for hot and cold weather, food for long passages, sewing machine, folding bikes, etc. All this gear needs to be stowed securely so as not to fly around the boat in rough weather.
We want a boat that sails well in light winds as well as heavy weather. Large sail area and an ability to go to weather are important to us.
We want a boat with a sea kindly motion. Its hard to get a sea kindly motion in a light weight boat.
Sailing as a couple means you are on watch for at least 12 hours a day. We want a boat that gives us at least one excellent sea berth. This is most easily achieved in the centre of the boat low down.
We chose a boat with a lead encapsulated keel, a skeg hung rudder and deep draft. This is what we wanted. It gives us confidence to cross ocean and is higher up our priority list than it is for others but thats our choice. Its not right or wrong, its simply a choice we made.
I could go on adding detail after detail but the point is, those are our details for what makes our bluewater boat and they would have different priorities for others.
Assuming Covid allows us, we will be crossing the Atlantic again next year. We believe we have the right boat for us to do something we enjoy.
If you sail across oceans and its a pleasure, you have probably found your bluewater boat

 

[john_morris_uk]

Well the article looks to be recent.

The makings of a bluewater boat - Ocean Navigator
www.oceannavigator.com › the-makings-of-a-bluewate...

Apr 27, 2018 — A slight majority of the boats had spade rudders (52 percent). The rest had skeg-hung (27 percent) or attached (21 percent) rudders. In 2017, five of the boats in this study developed rudder issues during the crossing.

You seem to give a lot of weight to this author and their article(s)?
Your quote above fails to mention the reasons the five spade rudders failed. Two delaminated (which I suggest might happen to any rudder that’s poorly made, no matter how it’s designed to be mounted) and one seized. (And you can argue until the cows come home as to whether skeg hung skeg protected or full length are more or less likely to seize their bearings!)

Some of the author’s statements are over simplifications or just wrong. For example:

A long-keel boat is easier to make heave-to, as it doesn’t pivot on the keel the way a fin keel does. Also, a full-keeled boat tracks better, especially going downwind in large seas, preventing the roundups on waves that are associated with many fin keel designs — ours included.

Sorry but there are some long keeled boats that really do sail like dogs and lots of fin keeled boats heave to beautifully and definitely DON’T round up and ‘pivot on their keels’ in the way the author suggests. Hull shape has a lot more to do with it and by his own admission he’s comparing things with his one experience of his own boat which is a cruiser racers. I’m not familiar with his particular Dufour but I’ve sailed a smaller one and that one was so agile you could make people fall over in flat seas by being overly enthusiastic on the helm.

I’ve owned and sailed long keeled boats and I’ve crossed oceans so by your measure I’m allegedly given some credibility (although I’d argue that a good naval architect should be respected far more than my anecdotal bits and pieces.) The discussion about what compromises one makes when designing a boat is an interesting one, but be careful what sources you use to justify a particular stance. I’d much rather say, ‘An ability to track well’ than immediately link that to ‘Long keel essential’. Etc.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I had a trawl around the internet to see if there was a consensus as to what defines a bluewater boat. There isnt.
The opinions on what makes a bluewater boat revolves around what people have. Somebody with a long keel boat will tell you a bluewater boat must have a long keel. Somebody with a Bavaria will tell you they make a fine bluewater boat and they get sailed to the Pacific regularly so they must be good. My own view is that anything that gives you confidence to cross oceans not once but regularly is a bluewater boat. If you keep doing it in the same boat you are either mad or happy with your boat?
My own bluewater spec boat is founded around the fact that we sail as a husband and wife team. With that in mind we need a boat that is easily sailed short handed. For this we need a reliable below decks autopilot that will steer in any weather. This is our third crew member and must work. In addition we want reliable wind self steering. In my opinion the two systems compliment each other, its not a choice of one or the other.
On ocean crossing we dont want a deck full of cargo. We want space to stow as much as possible below decks. With this in mind we want large deck locker space for wet stuff. We want large tankage for fuel and water. Carrying rows of fuel cans on deck like we often see on boats without adequate tankage doesnt, in my mind, define a bluewater boat.
We want lots and lots of space for stowage. Living aboard full time is a totally different use of our boat compared to UK weekend and holiday sailing. We carry far more spares and tools, clothes for hot and cold weather, food for long passages, sewing machine, folding bikes, etc. All this gear needs to be stowed securely so as not to fly around the boat in rough weather.
We want a boat that sails well in light winds as well as heavy weather. Large sail area and an ability to go to weather are important to us.
We want a boat with a sea kindly motion. Its hard to get a sea kindly motion in a light weight boat.
Sailing as a couple means you are on watch for at least 12 hours a day. We want a boat that gives us at least one excellent sea berth. This is most easily achieved in the centre of the boat low down.
We chose a boat with a lead encapsulated keel, a skeg hung rudder and deep draft. This is what we wanted. It gives us confidence to cross ocean and is higher up our priority list than it is for others but thats our choice. Its not right or wrong, its simply a choice we made.
I could go on adding detail after detail but the point is, those are our details for what makes our bluewater boat and they would have different priorities for others.
Assuming Covid allows us, we will be crossing the Atlantic again next year. We believe we have the right boat for us to do something we enjoy.
If you sail across oceans and its a pleasure, you have probably found your bluewater boat

I completely agree. The only difference we made was to limit our draft to 1.8 metres as deep draft limits your cruising options so much. (We based this on my experience of sailing a deep draft boat in the Bahamas and up the US Intercostal waterway, and advice we received at a ‘Bluewater Seminar’ organised by Yachting Monthly.)

 

[coopec]

I had a trawl around the internet to see if there was a consensus as to what defines a bluewater boat. There isnt.
The opinions on what makes a bluewater boat revolves around what people have. Somebody with a long keel boat will tell you a bluewater boat must have a long keel. Somebody with a Bavaria will tell you they make a fine bluewater boat and they get sailed to the Pacific regularly so they must be good. My own view is that anything that gives you confidence to cross oceans not once but regularly is a bluewater boat. If you keep doing it in the same boat you are either mad or happy with your boat?
My own bluewater spec boat is founded around the fact that we sail as a husband and wife team. With that in mind we need a boat that is easily sailed short handed. For this we need a reliable below decks autopilot that will steer in any weather. This is our third crew member and must work. In addition we want reliable wind self steering. In my opinion the two systems compliment each other, its not a choice of one or the other.
On ocean crossing we dont want a deck full of cargo. We want space to stow as much as possible below decks. With this in mind we want large deck locker space for wet stuff. We want large tankage for fuel and water. Carrying rows of fuel cans on deck like we often see on boats without adequate tankage doesnt, in my mind, define a bluewater boat.
We want lots and lots of space for stowage. Living aboard full time is a totally different use of our boat compared to UK weekend and holiday sailing. We carry far more spares and tools, clothes for hot and cold weather, food for long passages, sewing machine, folding bikes, etc. All this gear needs to be stowed securely so as not to fly around the boat in rough weather.
We want a boat that sails well in light winds as well as heavy weather. Large sail area and an ability to go to weather are important to us.
We want a boat with a sea kindly motion. Its hard to get a sea kindly motion in a light weight boat.
Sailing as a couple means you are on watch for at least 12 hours a day. We want a boat that gives us at least one excellent sea berth. This is most easily achieved in the centre of the boat low down.
We chose a boat with a lead encapsulated keel, a skeg hung rudder and deep draft. This is what we wanted. It gives us confidence to cross ocean and is higher up our priority list than it is for others but thats our choice. Its not right or wrong, its simply a choice we made.
I could go on adding detail after detail but the point is, those are our details for what makes our bluewater boat and they would have different priorities for others.
Assuming Covid allows us, we will be crossing the Atlantic again next year. We believe we have the right boat for us to do something we enjoy.
If you sail across oceans and its a pleasure, you have probably found your bluewater boat

I agree with everything you say: I'll give you full marks!

I have a lot of storage lockers all with SS latches (in the event of a knockdown) I can remove all the bottoms of lockers so I can get to the hull if ever holed.

I have deck lights (installed on the lower spreaders) but intend to have a battery powered deck light and main cabin lights (where the life jackets are stored) as back-up.

I hope you enjoy your next Atlantic crossing

 

[geem]

I completely agree. The only difference we made was to limit our draft to 1.8 metres as deep draft limits your cruising options so much. (We based this on my experience of sailing a deep draft boat in the Bahamas and up the US Intercostal waterway, and advice we received at a ‘Bluewater Seminar’ organised by Yachting Monthly.)

We have cruised the Bahamas with 2.2m draft. Since there are very few places in the world as shallow as the Bahamas we decided we didnt want to limit our draft just because of one cruising location. Lots of the Bahamas, especially the outer islands are not that shallow. We do have a large hard dinghy that allows to explore the parts that even shallow draft yachts cant get to so we didnt feel that our deep draft was an issue for us. We do plan to visit again as we only spent three months there.
We cant use the Intercoastal anyway due to our air draft?

 

[coopec]

I completely agree. The only difference we made was to limit our draft to 1.8 metres as deep draft limits your cruising options so much. (We based this on my experience of sailing a deep draft boat in the Bahamas and up the US Intercostal waterway, and advice we received at a ‘Bluewater Seminar’ organised by Yachting Monthly.)

Well my yacht is long keeled (as you know) but I went for a shallow draft of 5 ft for two reasons:

• I had dreams of putting the yacht into the European canals and
• I wanted to be able to seek shelter in a shallow bay (if need be) and from experience I could see the deep drafted racing yachts had to stay outside the sheltering reef