The Ford to Cummins Conversion Thread

[cryan]

Paul wasn't wrong when he said not to touch old bus engines...

My father (now retired) spent his career with one bus company in Edinburgh who I know were absolutely obsessed with good engineering (or at least were) to the point that when they bought out a small local firm and one of the smaller company buses failed its annual inspection the Chief Engineer demanded that they off load the company just to preserve his departments perfect non failure record.
However, here in Fife its Stagecoach that run the routes and some of their buses are dreadful! Turbos screaming, smoke billowing out and gearboxes crying all to achieve 10mph. Not good.


BTW, I really like your web page and will be following it to see your progress. really interesting.

 

[mil1194]

The Cummins 5.9 is also used in lots of tractors in the UK as well. The Case MX110 is a good example - unbreakable engine IMHO.

 

[Latestarter1]

View attachment 34580View attachment 34580Fitzroy

Here you go.........

Base Engine Information
Engine Serial Number: 21346063
Fuel Pump Part # 3282753
Fuel Pump Caliber.
Film Card T
Engine Config # D403055BB05
CPL # CPL2014
Model Name B5.9-145

Manufacturing Information
Original
Shop Order # SO14026 (DAF)
Date 22 Jan 1999
Plant DAR - (Darlington Engine Plant)

STORM Euro II motor.

#1 Pay heed to Tinkicker, however remember he deals with engines tortured by bus companies, 2,000 hour oil drains on bonkers synthetic low SAPS lubes not meeting any Cummins CES approvals because finance directors now have the last call, not engineering directors. A Chinese lady who is Chief Engineer for one of the major Hong Kong bus companies refer to UK bus operations as a bunch of third world outfits..............

At the current time I am helping five owners producing their own Cummins marine conversions.

Why is the B Series so superior to Ford Dover/Dorset or Perkins 6.354...

When I was with Ford we recognised that the B was a far more capable motor at higher outputs than the Dover and by comparison with both Dover and Cummins the Perkins 6.354/Phaser has crank dimensions akin to a bent pin and inadequate head clamp capability. How many times do I have to say that Ford automotive products (Dover/Dorset) had no tractor applications!

One guy performing a conversion purchased a 1998 B with 480k, stripped it and we checked critical dimensions, they all came out as still within manufacturing tolerances.

I have no issue with re-ringing honed bores, with certain caveats.

Take a look at the attached, re-power of time expired cost a fortune horizontal HT6.354's

Why I have downloaded two images I have no clue...............

 

[Latestarter1]

Benjamin,

Having had time to sleep on it here is outline for re-build plan.......

Strip the oil pan off and pull #5 main bearing cap. 99% chance that crank journal is bright and totally unmarked and shells just a nice even grey. Original Cummins main shell is three piece with thrusts dovetailed to main bearing, aftermarket bearings are generally one piece which I actually prefer. As this is not a bus engine you are not likely find the thrust lying in the oil pan!

If crank is as I expect perfect fit new bearings, you have shop manual, look at section in manual showing how to grind the head of a bolt down, insert bolt into crank oil-way and roll top bearing out leaving crank in situ.

Make visual inspection of cam from underneath, should be free of any spalling on the lobes.

What else would I do?? Other than fit a new lift pump about £14...... NOTHING at this low mileage.

Did not bother to look on parts listing but most probably you have the IPA (Industrial Power Alliance) Cummins/Komatsu noise package. Isolated rocker covers (good), steel ladder frame between oil pan and block rail (pain in the butt), noise panel on tappet cover (bad). Noise insulation pad holds moisture and rots the heck out of the tappet cover, get rid of it now. As to the steel ladder frame your call. B is already a quantum quieter than your old Dorsets personally I would dump it.

Ask Tinkicker if his company have some Dennis Dart spec alloy oil pans from scrapped of core, also alloy flywheel housing if you wish to save some more weight. Even with cast iron flywheel housing fully dressed engine, fan hub to flywheel should come in at no more than 460 kg. I have oil pans and housings should you require.

You have Euro II Bosch VE which could easily make 260 hp plus however I know that you want to keep within limits of your gearboxes, I am in process of doing a Bosch VE crib sheet, 180 just injectors and pump tweak 220 is pump re-work, but still easy as no charge cooler required.

Good luck

 

[tinkicker0]

Some more things to think about...

Certainly have quite a few full length ally sumps, can ask the MD if he wants to sell a couple. However being a businessman you have to be careful how to approach it. If he smells someone really interested he will up the price. When fitting this type pan I would strongly suggest buying the genuine one piece gasket with integral oil pickup included, rather than rely on separate sump and pickup gaskets, just for a more stable joint. Just my preference.

This gasket x2 if you are using the block stiffener plate. Also will require 10mm longer sump bolts and also 2 very long ones for the oil pickup when swapping tin oil pan to alloy with integral oil pickup assembly.
One thought...the alloy pan does not have any significant baffles inside, just the small one on the oil pickup assembly. Might this be a problem in heavy seas? EDIT: of course not, the damn pickup tube is laid on the bottom of the sump....what a dummy.

The new dipstick and tube assembly would have to moved to the centre of the block instead of the front unless these engines are not mounted level. LS will advise on dipstick location and calibration if they are tilted rearwards.

Also have the alloy flywheel housings, however......there are two types fitted to Dart to my knowledge - one for the Allison 1000 tranny and the other for the 2000 series. Would need part number.

Another thing which may be advantageous is the remote filter cooler housing and hoses if it is a tight fit in the engine bay. You would need the remote housing gasket too. However we fit these as a First Bus specified modification and demand far outstrips supply, so no S/H parts available for outside customers.
Speaking of cooler housings, probably not an issue with truck engines with regular oil changes, but a common bus failure is the filter choke bypass valve which gets worn, allowing unfiltered oil into the engine. A good prod with a screw driver to check the plastic disc seating and spring would not go amiss.

 

[MYStargazer]

BTW, I really like your web page and will be following it to see your progress. really interesting.

Thanks very much - it's better to share this kind of stuff for the benefit of everyone. Like most modest boat owners, I'm hands-on but this is not what I do (or did) for a dayjob. I think it's incumbent on boat owners to know their boat's systems intimately before they go to sea.

 

[MYStargazer]

The Cummins 5.9 is also used in lots of tractors in the UK as well. The Case MX110 is a good example - unbreakable engine IMHO.

I didn't know this. Perhaps this opens another avenue of low-cost spares and consumables. E.g. (I have no idea whether this is actually good value!) http://www.nctractorspares.co.uk/en...axxum-5100-mx110-175-21250-p.asp#.UhELFNLVD0U

 

[MYStargazer]

Thanks very much for your expert input, Paul.

View attachment 34580

Lovely!!!! Am thinking of buying a TIG welder and trying my hand at some stainless welding – I have a feeling that could be very satisfying.

Strip the oil pan off and pull #5 main bearing cap.

I’ll do this, photograph the process and do a write-up on my blog. The Cummins manuals seem a joy to use for someone used to nothing more technical than a Haynes manual.

Did not bother to look on parts listing but most probably you have the IPA (Industrial Power Alliance) Cummins/Komatsu noise package. Isolated rocker covers (good), steel ladder frame between oil pan and block rail (pain in the butt), noise panel on tappet cover (bad). Noise insulation pad holds moisture and rots the heck out of the tappet cover, get rid of it now. As to the steel ladder frame your call. B is already a quantum quieter than your old Dorsets personally I would dump it.

Thanks - I think (I hope) the full two-part, 1500-odd page work Service Manual should help me locate these.

Ask Tinkicker if his company have some Dennis Dart spec alloy oil pans from scrapped of core, also alloy flywheel housing if you wish to save some more weight. Even with cast iron flywheel housing fully dressed engine, fan hub to flywheel should come in at no more than 460 kg. I have oil pans and housings should you require.

The current oil pan (shallow & deep) is the same configuration as my current Fords, although the Cummins is smaller. Is the flat, Dennis Dart-spec oil pan needed? I think from memory my shafts sit at about 15 degrees.

You have Euro II Bosch VE which could easily make 260 hp plus however I know that you want to keep within limits of your gearboxes, I am in process of doing a Bosch VE crib sheet, 180 just injectors and pump tweak 220 is pump re-work, but still easy as no charge cooler required.

Yes, I’m aiming for 220 hp, definitely with no charge air cooler (the undoing of one my current Fords). My old props were stolen recently, but covered under home contents insurance, so I have flexibility when it comes to spec.

 

[Latestarter1]

Baffled oil pan

View attachment 34643View attachment 34642

Some more things to think about...

Certainly have quite a few full length ally sumps, can ask the MD if he wants to sell a couple. However being a businessman you have to be careful how to approach it. If he smells someone really interested he will up the price. When fitting this type pan I would strongly suggest buying the genuine one piece gasket with integral oil pickup included, rather than rely on separate sump and pickup gaskets, just for a more stable joint. Just my preference.

This gasket x2 if you are using the block stiffener plate. Also will require 10mm longer sump bolts and also 2 very long ones for the oil pickup when swapping tin oil pan to alloy with integral oil pickup assembly.
One thought...the alloy pan does not have any significant baffles inside, just the small one on the oil pickup assembly. Might this be a problem in heavy seas? EDIT: of course not, the damn pickup tube is laid on the bottom of the sump....what a dummy.

The new dipstick and tube assembly would have to moved to the centre of the block instead of the front unless these engines are not mounted level. LS will advise on dipstick location and calibration if they are tilted rearwards.

Also have the alloy flywheel housings, however......there are two types fitted to Dart to my knowledge - one for the Allison 1000 tranny and the other for the 2000 series. Would need part number.

Another thing which may be advantageous is the remote filter cooler housing and hoses if it is a tight fit in the engine bay. You would need the remote housing gasket too. However we fit these as a First Bus specified modification and demand far outstrips supply, so no S/H parts available for outside customers.
Speaking of cooler housings, probably not an issue with truck engines with regular oil changes, but a common bus failure is the filter choke bypass valve which gets worn, allowing unfiltered oil into the engine. A good prod with a screw driver to check the plastic disc seating and spring would not go amiss.

Tinkicker your observations re shallow oil pan are extremely valid. I always advocate fitting a windage baffle, simply an alloy sheet to keep lube pick in oil which has not been turned into milkshake by windage from #5,6 crank throws. For installation angles of 13 degrees and greater maximum lube capacity should be kept to 10 liters in the pan and a liter in the filter, which I have calculated as giving decent margin in the additive pack for a 200/250 hour oil drain, lubricant milkshake and flat plate oil coolers equal sky high lube temperatures.

Plenty of options for dip stick locations on block pan rail, the small core plugs available on Ebay, and I advocate using the Dennis Dart tube and oil level gauge, quaint term for dip stick as the DAF truck uses totally unsuitable set up. Makes no sense but the short vertical dip stick tube used on industrial applications such as Case tractors is cheap as chips however the compatible dip stick is £40!! I will post part #'s of Dennis Dart dip stick.

There are two low profile alloy oil pan options, forget the part #'s easy to identify, one has 'made in Great Britain' other has 'made in USA'. The US pan has additional option of handed dip sticks going straight into the pan. One thing you can be sure of is the need to either Helicoil or tap out to BSP and use good old fashioned brass bung as the bus butchers always rip the threads out. I have oil pans threaded BSP with brass bungs at £110 so £50 for a mullered bus pan would sound reasonable.

100% agree with comment re gasket incorporating pick up, however at one time genuine Cummins gasket did not have it and aftermarket gaskets did, now all changed around, seems like kits have the separate oil pick up gasket but purchased individually you get the integral one.

 

[Latestarter1]

The current oil pan (shallow & deep) is the same configuration as my current Fords, although the Cummins is smaller. Is the flat, Dennis Dart-spec oil pan needed? I think from memory my shafts sit at about 15 degrees.

Your current steel pan, deep at the front shallow at the back, is that how your Fords were configured or opposite way around? B steel pans have mirror fixings i.e. you can swap pan so the deep part is front or rear, however requires two different pick up pipes which may work out more expensive than second hand low profile pan. Just a personal thing but I hate mild steel oil pans in boats.

Take a look at the picture, I am using the mounting pads on the Borg Warner gearbox which allows use of DAF spec flywheel housing. Europeans tend to rear mount engines off the flywheel housing, in the U.S. always off the gearbox. This was a big screw up by PRM as their gearboxes were never acceptable in Worlds largest marine market as they have no provision for mounting pads. My advice, consider mounting rear off the gearbox, pal of mine from CAT when arguing with European boat builders always said 'take a look a good boxer, he stands with his feet well apart'.

Yes, I’m aiming for 220 hp, definitely with no charge air cooler (the undoing of one my current Fords). My old props were stolen recently, but covered under home contents insurance, so I have flexibility when it comes to spec.

Because you have the larger capacity Bosch pump 220 is real easy and as you are a displacement vessel you are unlikely to need my rocket ship fuel pin, although a Corvette which had my pump set up with modified fuel pin had the owner in raptures as he could blow away his pals Corvette which had 315 Yanmars. Another bonus in having a Euro II engine is the nice responsive Holset HX35 turbo with Mapped Width Enhancement (MWE).

 

[rustybarge]

Very very interesting thread.......

 

[MYStargazer]

Pan pan, pan pan!

Certainly have quite a few full length ally sumps, can ask the MD if he wants to sell a couple.

That’s very kind of you, TK.

Your current steel pan, deep at the front shallow at the back, is that how your Fords were configured or opposite way around? B steel pans have mirror fixings i.e. you can swap pan so the deep part is front or rear, however requires two different pick up pipes which may work out more expensive than second hand low profile pan. Just a personal thing but I hate mild steel oil pans in boats.

This is my current setup:

Which looks similar to my new engine:

So why the need for the low profile plan, if I’m happy to stick to have a steel pan, and there’s plenty of room to reach the bilge? The shafts are on (now I’ve checked) about 10º when the boat’s at rest, but the bow does lift up quite a bit when trying to get over the hump (as much as she ever can…).

 

[MYStargazer]

I might be being a dipstick…

The new dipstick and tube assembly would have to moved to the centre of the block instead of the front unless these engines are not mounted level. LS will advise on dipstick location and calibration if they are tilted rearwards.

Plenty of options for dip stick locations on block pan rail, the small core plugs available on Ebay, and I advocate using the Dennis Dart tube and oil level gauge, quaint term for dip stick as the DAF truck uses totally unsuitable set up. Makes no sense but the short vertical dip stick tube used on industrial applications such as Case tractors is cheap as chips however the compatible dip stick is £40!! I will post part #'s of Dennis Dart dip stick.

Would the dipstick only need to be rearranged and/or relocated if I had to change the oil pan – other than for ease of access?

How would I recalibrate to take account of the 10º resting angle?

Here’s the current dipstick on the new engine:

 

[MYStargazer]

Cunning plan…

Also have the alloy flywheel housings, however......there are two types fitted to Dart to my knowledge - one for the Allison 1000 tranny and the other for the 2000 series. Would need part number.

Take a look at the picture, I am using the mounting pads on the Borg Warner gearbox which allows use of DAF spec flywheel housing. Europeans tend to rear mount engines off the flywheel housing, in the U.S. always off the gearbox. This was a big screw up by PRM as their gearboxes were never acceptable in Worlds largest marine market as they have no provision for mounting pads. My advice, consider mounting rear off the gearbox, pal of mine from CAT when arguing with European boat builders always said 'take a look a good boxer, he stands with his feet well apart'.

Here’s my current standard DAF flywheel housing, with no mounting pads:

Here’s Hugo’s solution, which uses a kind of extending arm to reach out from both sides of the gearbox:

Here’s my cunning plan. It’s an adapter plate, laser cut from a single sheet of 8mm(?) mild steel, but the shape incorporates flaps at the side to which steel angles are bolted. The ovals allow for vertical adjustment, while similar ovals in the bottom of the steel angles allow for lateral adjustment. Here’s a very rough sketch:

What do you think, or is it a case of "It's a **** idea, and for that reason, I'm ooot!"...?!

 

[MYStargazer]

Because you have the larger capacity Bosch pump 220 is real easy and as you are a displacement vessel you are unlikely to need my rocket ship fuel pin, although a Corvette which had my pump set up with modified fuel pin had the owner in raptures as he could blow away his pals Corvette which had 315 Yanmars. Another bonus in having a Euro II engine is the nice responsive Holset HX35 turbo with Mapped Width Enhancement (MWE).

I want to get as much power as I can without buggering the BW VelvetDrive gearboxes or needing a charge air cooler…

 

[volvopaul]

I want to get as much power as I can without buggering the BW VelvetDrive gearboxes or needing a charge air cooler…

How about a pair of zf Irm 220 gearboxes, mate has a pair and there down angle so you could mount the engines nearly level which may help with your sump problem. I know in ford mermaid/ sabre set up the box that runs opposite got chewed up with anything more than 200hp so beware what you throw at it, you then get paul to turn the wick up a bit more!!

 

[burgundyben]

I like that idea, a nice big radius under the 'flaps' would be good, plus, surely, the vertical slots are not needed because there is vertical adjustment on the anti vibe feets?

Not sure where you are, but Tony Foy, Weld and Metal craft would be a good man for the laser cut.

I'd be happy to help getting a cad dxf done of that if it helps, then I could use it.

Realised today you used to be HWMBO or something.

 

[MYStargazer]

How about a pair of zf Irm 220 gearboxes, mate has a pair and there down angle so you could mount the engines nearly level which may help with your sump problem. I know in ford mermaid/ sabre set up the box that runs opposite got chewed up with anything more than 200hp so beware what you throw at it, you then get paul to turn the wick up a bit more!!

Thanks for the suggestion, but I want to keep the old boxes if I can to keep costs down. I'm hoping the sump won't be a problem. There was a suggestion that 'shimming up' the BWs may help, but I'm not sure what this entails.

 

[MYStargazer]

I like that idea

Thanks!

a nice big radius under the 'flaps' would be good

Not quite sure what you mean - are you any good with Paint?!

surely, the vertical slots are not needed because there is vertical adjustment on the anti vibe feets?

The current feet (1973 vintage) seem very solid, but I think I'l learn more once the current engines are out and I can examine them more closely. I'm wondering why no one has gone for these flaps before - seems like an elegant solution to me, plus it saves me darkening the door of a certain marinisation parts supplier who I felt did me a bad turn some years back.

Not sure where you are, but Tony Foy, Weld and Metal craft would be a good man for the laser cut.

I'd be happy to help getting a cad dxf done of that if it helps, then I could use it.

Thanks very much indeed. That's very kind of you,

Realised today you used to be HWMBO or something.

The very same - I changed my username when I created my blog. Great to share the process and work through all the nitty-gritty...

 

[MYStargazer]

Very very interesting thread.......

Nice of you to say so, thanks!