the belgians are right to fine us for red diesel says my Euro MP

maby said:
Not again! The fault is not with our government, it's with our marinas. The UK government is not saying that we must use red diesel.
Click to expand...

The government sets out the rules which are available to us, and of course we would always pick the cheapest/best option given the rules. With all the information of FAME and sulphur on these fora I would not be happy road fuel in my marina's tanks.

It seems to me the UK government made its decision based on advice from interest groups and the EU. Between the UK, Belgium and the EU there has been some poor management, which we end up paying the price. Can't see any winners here except EU bureaucrats. Belgium should have ignored the oddity IMHO.
 
Bosun Higgs said:
Heavens sake Angelsson! You're like the club member who signs up the the club rules when he joins, enjoys making new rules every AGM and then says " well of course the club has no right to apply its rules to me".

When / if we leave the EU then we can make all our own rules. In the meantime we have to abide by the EU laws that we have agreed to.
Click to expand...
No Bosun, Ted joined us to the club, the Common Market, they had an agenda, Federal Europe. We didnt vote for that and have been head butting a mattress ever since( to pinch a phrase off another forumite!)
Stu
 
Can anyone tell me exactly what MEP's do? They seem to have been effectively 'self created' and the cost of having them is exorbitant..
I begrudge enough the value for money (or lack of it) that we get purely from the UK Government, let alone this mob of 'jobs for the boys' that do 'something' in Europe.
 
Pye_End said:
It seems to me the UK government made its decision based on advice from interest groups and the EU. Between the UK, Belgium and the EU there has been some poor management, which we end up paying the price. Can't see any winners here except EU bureaucrats. Belgium should have ignored the oddity IMHO.
Click to expand...

Just like the UK could have chosen to ignore the oddity that yachts can buy duty free fags and booze in Belgium.
 
Guapa said:
Just like the UK could have chosen to ignore the oddity that yachts can buy duty free fags and booze in Belgium.
Click to expand...

It is nutty going through the whole process twice. It has been done once and the EU appeared quite happy with the outcome at the time. Belgium could have become involved first time round. Instead taxpayers have to pay shed loads of money again to get it resolved, and in the meantime cruising to Belgium is either on hold, or a risk.

At best Belgium should have brought the issue up with the EU only. To fine sailors who have virtually no choice on filling their tanks makes no sense, and I cannot see any winners here. Whilst I would fully appreciate the duty free example, it is rather different from the diesel problem. Not buying duty free does not stop you taking your boat to Belgium, but having red in your tanks might. It is poor management. If they were all running a business it would have gone bust (maybe it has).
 
Pye_End said:
The government sets out the rules which are available to us, and of course we would always pick the cheapest/best option given the rules. With all the information of FAME and sulphur on these fora I would not be happy road fuel in my marina's tanks.

It seems to me the UK government made its decision based on advice from interest groups and the EU. Between the UK, Belgium and the EU there has been some poor management, which we end up paying the price. Can't see any winners here except EU bureaucrats. Belgium should have ignored the oddity IMHO.
Click to expand...

So much of this comment seems to run wide of the reason why we are where we are. Until 4 or so years ago we enjoyed tax concessioned red fuel for pleasure purposes, then the EU insisted this concession be withdrawn.

I saw no mention that red diesel for pleasure must be withdrawn, just that tax concessions to UK users be stopped. This must be so otherwise how could HMG have come up with the 60:40 tax concession (applied to red) without incurring immediate enforcement action by the EU to apply road tax levels to all UK supplied fuel for pleasure purposes and exclusion from using red ?

HMG would never have offered us just the 60:40 solution unless it conformed - all enabling legislation/standards have to meet EU legislation, non? The EU has not acted even now, years later, to order Westminster to make changes.

But I do see Belgium and some other European countries have taken measures to limit red diesel exclusively to non-pleasure applications. Apparently this is their choice. Now an awareness of our continuing use of red for pleasure is worrying them. The Belgian embassy states Belgium is merely implementing EU law in threatening to fine bona fide UK vessels travelling with red diesel: I fail to see the basis for their assertion. So why are they harassing us?

The potential loss in revenue to the Belgians from their own nationals taking advantage of our 60:40 red provision on visiting us is so small as to pile ridicule on the Belgian position. The loss of faggy revenue to HMG from one day's import of Belgian low tax shag baccy exceeds this many times over....and so on.

If reason does not prevail, we can only conclude it's (silly) EU politics at work again and press our representatives not to take a supine position. I wrote to my MEP, did you?

PWG
 
Heavens above Bosun, this is what the RYA say:

The RYA has obtained specialist tax advice which indicates that the UK's continued use of marked 'red' diesel does not contravene the EU marking directive, and we understand that the HMRC has been similarly advised.

Justine Greening MP, Economic Secretary to the Treasury confirmed in a letter to the RYA (Sept.11) that the Government “continue to believe that procedures in the UK comply with both the Energy Products Directive and the Fiscal Marking Directive, and we intend to reply to the Commission to that effect.’

Diesel for use in recreational craft is also marked red in many other countries outside the EU including the USA and Norway. So any boat visiting the EU having taken on fuel in any of these countries would also lawfully have red diesel in their fuel tanks.

So why kneel to Brussels, most Bosuns I know are made of sterner stuff.
 
I am sure that the RYA and HMRC/HM Government believe they are right in saying red diesel is perfectly legal for us to use and have in our tanks when we visit Belgium.

I believe that Joanna Lumley would find me irresistable.

Our beliefs do not change reality. Belgian Customs really are fining UK yachts for having red diesel. I have not yet tested my belief about Joanna Lumley.
 
Burnham Bob said:
I am sure that the RYA and HMRC/HM Government believe they are right in saying red diesel is perfectly legal for us to use and have in our tanks when we visit Belgium.

I believe that Joanna Lumley would find me irresistable.

Our beliefs do not change reality. Belgian Customs really are fining UK yachts for having red diesel. I have not yet tested my belief about Joanna Lumley.
Click to expand...

She would prefer a younger man Im sure ;)
 
The poor Belgians get all the flak, don't even think about going to Holland, they have been writing fines for red diesel since 2006/7.
 
PeterGibbs said:
If reason does not prevail, we can only conclude it's (silly) EU politics at work again and press our representatives not to take a supine position. I wrote to my MEP, did you?

PWG
Click to expand...

Suggest you read the extensive material in the public domain, particularly on the RYA site.

You will see that the government IS vigorously defending its position on the matter, believing that its interpretation of the Directive into law is correct (or rather complies with the Directive, as the Commission has confirmed previously).

That does not of course necessarily mean they will be successful - whatever success is!
 
WouldbeSailor said:
The poor Belgians get all the flak, don't even think about going to Holland, they have been writing fines for red diesel since 2006/7.
Click to expand...
Since 2006/7, I have been boarded by Dutch Customs twice, in the pool behind Vlissingen lock. On both occasions, they were interested in two things, duty free goods from Belgium which are illegal in Holland, and red diesel in tanks and jerry cans. Being shown white diesel in jerry cans and recent reciepts from UK marinas for red diesel satisfied their curiosity on diesel. I am not sure of the current position, but summer 2011 seemed OK.
 
The reason I started the two other threads was that it was unclear at the time what was happening in either the Government/RYA debate with the EU and on the ground with Belgian customs.

Now we know that the RYA and HMG are nowhere near getting a ruling from the EU that they are right, and we do know that Belgian Customs as an official policy (and as a day to day routine) are dipping tanks and fining UK sailors for having red diesel.

However much we shout and protest, we won't change what's happening. And it's highly unlikely the UK will win the EU legal process.

And we do know from anecdotal evidence that Holland is okay with red diesel in your tank with duty paid receipts, but the Belgians aren't.
 
Last edited:
Pye_End said:
The government sets out the rules which are available to us, and of course we would always pick the cheapest/best option given the rules. With all the information of FAME and sulphur on these fora I would not be happy road fuel in my marina's tanks.

....
Click to expand...

The government certainly does set out the rules which are available to us and those rules include the option of filling up with either road fuel or unmarked high-sulphur diesel - either of which would satisfy the Belgians. It's not the government's fault that virtually nobody will sell us either...
 
Stork_III said:
Since 2006/7, I have been boarded by Dutch Customs twice, in the pool behind Vlissingen lock. On both occasions, they were interested in two things, duty free goods from Belgium which are illegal in Holland, and red diesel in tanks and jerry cans. Being shown white diesel in jerry cans and recent reciepts from UK marinas for red diesel satisfied their curiosity on diesel. I am not sure of the current position, but summer 2011 seemed OK.
Click to expand...

Red diesel in your tank with an invoice (less than a year old) showing you paid full tax will keep you out of trouble in Holland. Red diesel in jerry cans will cost you.
 
PeterGibbs said:
So why are they harassing us?


PWG
Click to expand...

Please do not delude yourself that the Brits are being singled out.
Belgian Customs officers routinely check Belgian yachts on the use of red diesel. I would actually expect that they check many more Belgian than British yachts on the basis that they patrol all year.
Many Belgian yachtsmen quite like to sail across to the UK, have to fill up there and subsequently risk heavy fines in our own country. We are probably less interested in the question who is responsible for this mess than in how are we going to get out of it.
And by the way, it is a problem we do not face when returning from Holland or France. (takes coat...:-)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top