The approx costs of refitting boats by size

[steve yates]

I was bored and wondering about these things, which lead me to put this together. I'd be very interested in anyone who has refitted any of the sections of a boat commenting on the estimated cost compared to what they found?
The costs are mainly for replacing with new including materials and assuming its done yourself, except for the engine replacement, that assumes its fitted for you. I've tried to estimate it at the upper end of each size range, so obviously a 23 footer may be a bit less than the same job on a 26 footer. I have a reasonably good idea of the costs at the 18-21 ft and 28-32 foot range, but admit the others are guestimates, from what I have read on here.
It certainly seems to show that the well fitted out more expensive boat would usually be much cheaper than a the project boat costing pennies but needing everything done! Its also quite sobering just how much the costs seem to increase as boat length goes up. Anyway, here you go, see what you think and all corrections and anecdotes welcome.

 

[Supertramp]

That looks like a good and accurate comparison, and I think the size effect is right. For many boats this money will not be spent in one go but ongoing. I looked at a Southerly 115 which was for sale for £55k and had 10 years documented maintenance spend of £65k.

Also be aware of particular issues with certain models which could cost a lot. I had to replace a bevel gearbox in my wheel steering system that cost about £3k including fitting as it was beyond my competence. Needless to say the other 4 gearboxes in the system are being carefully maintained....

You could add teak deck repair to the larger boats....

Most boats are on a spectrum between neglect and perfection needing more or less work done. Perhaps more relevant is the intrinsic value and/or new equivalent cost of a boat. A Rustler 36 for example might justify money spent more easily than a lower cost model.

If the boat cost plus refurbishment come to under 50% of an equivalent boat new price then many people would see the attraction in an old boat equipped with choice equipment.

One final point is that I have been pleasantly surprised at how much of a (well looked after, good quality) 33 year old boat is in good and useable condition.

 

[Rappey]

That's quite an impressive piece of work. Not everything needs replacing all the time though. Many other parts can be replaced via ebay ,fb market etc where you can find old but never used, saving a fortune and aquiring high end items.
I've gone through your list and compared to what I've spent on my 33 ft boat and come in at just under 10k. It does take time for the item you need to turn up though and being able to do all the work yourself saves a huge amount

 

[pandos]

I had a quick look. Most figures seem ok with careful purchasing and bargain hunting substantial savings could be made.

You are absolutely correct that a good used expensive boat can be much cheaper in the long run than a project.

 

[Supertramp]

In simple terms, the refit cost is in proportion to the weight, not length. And probably not very different between makes.

 

[Tranona]

Fair representation. The 28-32' costs are relevant to my Golden Hind project and for the items I am doing pretty accurate, except for the autopilot as mine is tiller steered rather than wheel. Actual things done so far

Upholstery, part recovered plus new backrests and end cushions £1800
New mainsail and stackpack £2200
Sprayhood £2100
Electrics 2AGMs, 1 Red Flash start, Wiring, busbars, terminals, 16 way switch panel, mimic, switch cluster, battery monitor - approaching £2k so far but not quite finished.
Chart Plotter, GPS repeater for speed, VHF, splitter and AIS £1600

Not sure yet about engine, but when it is done (hopefully refurbished rather than replaced) will also renew sterngear and fit feathering prop - expected £3k plus whatever the engine costs.

My ball park when I started was£20k on top of what I paid for the boat, but expect it will be closer to 25, so total cost when finished about 50% more than the best similar comparable model I have seen in the last few years, but substantially cheaper than the 4 late model examples that have changed hands recently.

Big thing for me, though is that I am doing what I have wanted to do for years but could not for various reasons and despite the frustrations at times thoroughly enjoying it.

 

[jac]

the only thing I would take issue with is things like Dinghy or cooker or bunks where cost is more likely to be linked to size / number and quality replaced. A 20 footer or footer buying the same 2.3m dinghy and 2.5hp OB will pay the same after all! Similarly if you buy the same cooker it will cost the same- only difference between a 20 footer and a 40 footer might be a few extra metres of piping.

 

[Rappey]

Sprayhood £2100

Would that be a full cockpit setup, surely not just for a sprayhood ?

 

[steve yates]

the only thing I would take issue with is things like Dinghy or cooker or bunks where cost is more likely to be linked to size / number and quality replaced. A 20 footer or footer buying the same 2.3m dinghy and 2.5hp OB will pay the same after all! Similarly if you buy the same cooker it will cost the same- only difference between a 20 footer and a 40 footer might be a few extra metres of piping.

Aye true, ithink i kept those costs the same tenderwise, going up a bit for the bigger boats if they had a hardfloored rib or sep fuel tank maybe. Agree about the cooking, I was thinking along the lines of the bigger boats might also have a fridge or two sinks, and two gas lockers instead of one ( or bigger one for two bottles) , but I was just Guessing.

 

[steve yates]

That's quite an impressive piece of work. Not everything needs replacing all the time though. Many other parts can be replaced via ebay ,fb market etc where you can find old but never used, saving a fortune and aquiring high end items.
I've gone through your list and compared to what I've spent on my 33 ft boat and come in at just under 10k. It does take time for the item you need to turn up though and being able to do all the work yourself saves a huge amount

Yes I agree, but also useful to know what it might cost to replace certain bits further down the line. I have been squirreling away bits of cheaper stuff from here and ebay for years for my boats, and I certainly won’t end up spending those sums. But its also good to get an idea of how much I have saved against new costs, helps justify how much I have spent
for instance the used autopilot for my wee boat cost £90, plus some screws and gorilla glue, against the new price from cactus of £450. My tender came with the boat and i got an ob bracket for a tenner and a 2.5hp 2 stroke for £125 from here, so makes a big difference to final refurb cost. My bigger boat, a 32ft longbow, had new sails, new engine, and new standing rigging… so that makes me feel I have already saved close to £20k!

 

[steve yates]

Would that be a full cockpit setup, surely not just for a sprayhood ?

Good point tranona, i never thought to add sprayhood/ dodgers and the like.

 

[WLane]

I'm not going to give a full CV, but you'll have to take my word that I live and breathe building, as do my family.

Punters are always drawn to the romance of the wreck (houses that is). It's worse than it's ever been. I've seen project houses selling recently that are completely out of kilter with what it would cost to get them up to the standard of the purchaser's imagination.

The simple fact is, at the high end of the market, if the person quoting thinks you've got the money, they'll go high.

A big pleasure boat is the perfect indicator of means. It's the classic luxury purchase. Big boat = pay more.

Irrespective of the actual costs involved.

Doesn't mean there isn't a science to the costs and their relation to size. There absolutely is.

But what you pay, either to installers or parts suppliers will be subject in a great part to how they perceive your pockets.

 

[Tranona]

But what you pay, either to installers or parts suppliers will be subject in a great part to how they perceive your pockets.

While that is partly true when you are paying somebody to do the work, steve's cost (and most of mine) are just for materials. With free standing work like sails and sprayhood these are traded in a very competitive market place and even though the majority of the cost is labour, rates vary where you buy. Like other consumer items the internet allows you to really achieve the price/service/quality balance that you want. For example I could have "saved" 20% or so having my sail made in China, but what I would not have got is the personal service of the person who designs the sail measuring the boat, liaising with the rigger who is modifying the rigging arrangements and then fitting the sail and associated custom designed stackpack.

Equally buying hardware is straightforward as you can view what is available on line and although on some items the price is still largely controlled by the manufacturer, on others there is often significant variations in price. I saved around 20% overall on one selection of items by buying from one source on their "Black Friday" deal. Other ways of saving are reducing spec or buying used. The former is often false economy and the latter a bit hit and miss but great when you do get a bargain like the B2B charger I bought from a forumite here.

The biggest challenge I find is weighing up the pros and cons of competing products and systems, particularly when buying new things with little previous experience. Clearly not alone in this as questions about "best buys" are probably the most common on here.

Upgrading and refurbishment projects on the sort of boat that concern most here only work if you do most of the work yourself, and work even better if the process is enjoyable. However, definitely not a "cheap" way to go sailing if you have a modest budget. Better as suggested earlier to buy a boat with moat of the work done and gradually replace and upgrade a you go along.

Not unlike houses, if you want a house to live in don't buy a project!

 

[Tranona]

Would that be a full cockpit setup, surely not just for a sprayhood ?

Yes, custom made to a very specific brief and does include fitments to take a cockpit cover to be added later. Top end but overall not out of line with a similar sprayhood and cover I had made (by another supplier) for the Bavaria 6 years ago.

 

[Blueboatman]

The only thing I would add is..
The more hours/days/years you get to use the boat after getting it right, the lower the expenditure per hour.
And the greater the returns in pleasure . Indeed one might argue that the problem solving refit stage is good for an aging brain and the active, fun sailing part continues to give you a longer life too..

And you can’t put a price on a long and healthy life ?

A bit of a win-win, no? ?

 

[steve yates]

Id rather be sailing than fixing That part is more of a necessary evil for me.

 

[scozzy]

Wow, interesting stuff although miles Nth of my spend on my project boat! Its small and needed everything done which I did 95% of myself so i suppose big savings there but still...

 

[steve yates]

Wow, interesting stuff although miles Nth of my spend on my project boat! Its small and needed everything done which I did 95% of myself so i suppose big savings there but still...

What size and , if your happy to share, what spend scozzy? Apart from engine replacement, its based on doing it yourself where practical, but it is just estimates a lot of it. I'd love to get a feel for hpw far up or down they are in various areas. And its assuming buying new, obviously you save tons buying used, which is actually what I usually do.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that with a "project" boat or just an older one you can spread the upgrade costs over several years if required. And of course for some the refit is something to enjoy and relish rather than walking onto a ready made boat.

 

[Concerto]

When I bought Concerto, my 32ft Westerly Fulmar, I budgeted £12,000 for renovation to get it the way I wanted everything. Well over 8 years that has now stretched to about £27,500. Many things I could have lived with or used a cheaper alternative, but somethings like replacing the stanchions, bases and adding side gates along with all associated lifelines were a safety consideration at over £1800. Removing the damaged TreadMaster in the cockpit and replacing with teak was a very nice improvement. To me, sails are the "engine" of the boat so I did not buy the cheapest, but still use the spinnaker from 1996 as it was almost unused. Only having foot pumped cold water, I am currently fitting pressurised hot and cold water and a shower at a cost of about £1000. The original cool box is being converted to a fridge, cost about £650. The antifouling was stripped back to gel coat, then Gel Shield applied followed by 2 coats of hard antifouling and 2 of self polishing. The decks have had 2 coats of non slip deck paint and external woodwork has been varnished. All of this cost more to do than you have allowed and I must have used at least a dozen rolls of expensive masking tape which is not mentioned in your list (the deck used 3½ rolls alone). Marine upholstry can be expensive and I was quoted from £2500, but I managed to get mine done for just under £600 by shopping around. Luckily the engine had been replaced with a Beta a few years earlier, but I still added a dripless shaft seal and a folding propeller.

Steve from your list you have made the headlining allowance figure too low. My forward cabin cost £650 for materials recently, so for a full boat this would be about £2500+. You have not included a sailcover/stackpak or sprayhood, these cost 8 years ago £2500. You have made no allowance for being ashore and lifting. With all the work you planned I am surprised you have not included a new loo or fitting a holding tank. What about an anchor winch for the 32ft and upward sizes? I have a manual winch fitted, but these are no longer fitted so expect another £1500+. You may need to change all the winches to more powerful self tailing ones, I did but was lucky to get some secondhand ones at a bargain price. You may need repairs or replacement to pulpit and pushpit or some deck fittings. You should have a contingency fund of about 20% for unexpected costs.

It is always impossible to generalise exactly what costs will be for any particular boat as it does depend on condition. Many older boats may need some replacement woodwork like external handrails or toe rails, not to mention a teak deck or correction of interior fit out through changing needs.

Overall my costs are well below your projected costs and including purchase price still come in well under the 50% cost of a new boat with all the extras needed above the base price. As I have owned Concerto already for 8 years and do not expect to sell for at least another 10 years, I can honestly say I will benefit from all of the renovations and improvements. Over the next 10 years my costs should be similar to a new boat and means I will hopefully have even more time sailing her. This year it is the full round Britian via the Shetlands.