Terrible news from Clipper

Brent Swain said:
Just like a grocer here in Comox ( Johns Independent Grocers ) Who, I have just been told, relabels expired chicken and puts it back on the shelf with new expiry dates.
Not hard to weld a new shank on..IF you have been forewarned. That is why some prefer to build their own boats ,so they know exactly how it is put together, no surprises.
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Not many people know how to weld high tensile steels properly. It is 'not hard' to weld (HT steel) and return the steel to the strength of mild steel - and then - lots of surprises, or at least one surprise.

The only people who might use a mild steel shank after the Rocna debacle (now history and there have been no untoward events, reported, since) would live under a rock - so no-one would be, was, forewarned (nor guessed).

Jonathan
 
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Neeves said:
I think you and I call them furlers :)

They have a forestay, inner stay and a prodder to take a Code Zero. Plenty to allow them to ring changes.

We used to use hanked on sails, and I note hanked on sails are not unusual on racing yachts (I assume because the sail might be a better shape and it reduces windage and weight aloft). Are there other reasons?

But for yachts all of the same design I cannot see that it matters - they could all use furlers and they would be equally disadvantaged (and equally reduce the need for so many visits to the foredeck)


As an aside - storm jibs are commonly all hanked on - and the last place you want to be when you need a storm jib - is on the foredeck.

Jonathan
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It would be very easy to design out Clippers revenue stream from their business model.
 
NormanS said:
Would it not be a heck of a lot simpler and safer, to design the boat's systems so that crew do not to have to be on the foredeck for routine sail changing?
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Yes but the Clipper round the world race is intended as an adventure challenge. The net result of a successful circuit is being safely back at the start, so by logical extension should just stay at home to avoid any of the risk.

Yes could have furler foresails and asymetrics like the Open 60s, but would have a lot of bored Clipper crew with nothing to do for days on end. Or a reduced crew of say 6 paying and 2 professional crew - when the cost per paying crew would be astronomical. Which would be back to the staying at home and not having a Venture for the hundreds of people who want this challenge.
 
Neeves said:
We used to use hanked on sails, and I note hanked on sails are not unusual on racing yachts (I assume because the sail might be a better shape and it reduces windage and weight aloft). Are there other reasons?
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Simpler and more durable. Furlers can fail, sails can jam etc. It's better to have correctly designed jibs to match wind speed, a furled sail is not as good as a proper No2 or 3 etc. It's easier to design jibs with cloth weight to suit wind speed. The basic method of hanking a sail on is very secure and foolproof(?)
 
savageseadog said:
Simpler and more durable. Furlers can fail, sails can jam etc. It's better to have correctly designed jibs to match wind speed, a furled sail is not as good as a proper No2 or 3 etc. It's easier to design jibs with cloth weight to suit wind speed. The basic method of hanking a sail on is very secure and foolproof(?)
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Not if it leads to people falling over the side! But I do take the point about needing fewer crew/paying participants, and therefore not being a viable business.
 
NormanS said:
Not if it leads to people falling over the side! But I do take the point about needing fewer crew/paying participants, and therefore not being a viable business.
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Perhaps, but the issue is that a person who had reason to be at the bow in a blow had their tether hook fail. While elimination of the jobs that require work with a harness is a sound proposal, for times when a harness is required the system should not fail. I am sure that we can all think of situations requiring us to be hooked on where the risk of going overboard is higher than normal. I think the roller furling / separate headsail point is moot.
 
Those same, flimsy, hooks that you would not use are the same hooks used on all of the Clipper yachts.

There are differences - they are relying on the integrity and competence of the technical staff at Clipper to supply unquestionable equipment. The technical staff at Clipper, one would expect, to be more au fait with equipment and ensure that equipment minimised the 'risks'. They are paying for their adventure as part of a commercial venture, Clipper is a business - the crew are the product. With no disrespect to you, Captain Popeye, they are probably sailing under more arduous conditions than you, will ever encounter - so if you would not use them why should they? You have a choice - they use what is given to them.

The flimsiness of the hook might having nothing whatsoever to do with the loss of life, the MAIB report will (presumably) define that. But the fact that these hooks can bend so easily is questionable. It was a simple, cheap and very quick test. Equally the fact this has not been uncovered and advertised previously is also something to worry about - how many other bits of critical kit slip under the radar?

edit

I have not kept up to date on the schedule but the next port of call was the Whitsundays and then China? In view of the results in Practical Sailor I wonder if they will retire all the existing hooks (and tethers) in favour of something more robust? It seems unethical to continue to use something so demonstrably flimsy (when there are alternatives).

close edit

Jonathan
 
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thinwater said:
If you get PS, this is about the clip, full report in a few weeks.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/Tether-Clip-Update-12345-1.html#read
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I'm not sure of the failure mode reconstructed there. Most likely is that Dr David Banner goes offshore racing one day, a tack is called so he tries to unclip, releases the Gibb hook and catches it on the webbing jackstay. Instead of freeing it he gets very angry, turns green, rips his clothes and exerts 200Kg of force on the clip destroying the hook. Crew boss yells at him to stop messing about and get back on the grinders.

The whole point of a Gibb hook is that they don't come undone unless you act to release them, so I can't see the value of a test that focusing on what happens when they become accidentally partially undone and snag. Are you trying to say that mirrors the facts in the Clipper case? I got a different impression from the RKJ interview.
 
lpdsn said:
I'm not sure of the failure mode reconstructed there. Most likely is that Dr David Banner goes offshore racing one day, a tack is called so he tries to unclip, releases the Gibb hook and catches it on the webbing jackstay. Instead of freeing it he gets very angry, turns green, rips his clothes and exerts 200Kg of force on the clip destroying the hook. Crew boss yells at him to stop messing about and get back on the grinders.

The whole point of a Gibb hook is that they don't come undone unless you act to release them, so I can't see the value of a test that focusing on what happens when they become accidentally partially undone and snag. Are you trying to say that mirrors the facts in the Clipper case? I got a different impression from the RKJ interview.
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What was your interpretation of the RKJ interview?

I'm not sure that Thinwater and PS are suggesting that they have replicated what happened on Clipper - as my understanding is that currently no-one is 100% sure of the circumstances (and we may never know - with 100% certainty). What Thinwater and PS are saying, or my understanding is, that under certain circumstances or in a specific simulation that cannot be ignored as being unrealistic, the hooks have a weakness or defect. One may decide that the simulation is far fetched and so unlikely that it can be totally ignored - but that is for the individual to decide. I don't know what other work PS might consider in their investigation, if anything, but the fact they outline one weakness certainly raises a question in my mind, that was not present previously.

To me having the jackstay tape caught in the jaw of the hook is a very real possibility (clipping on or unclipping), yes you can correct it - but you might have been thrown to the lifelines before you can make remedial action. Unlikely maybe - but possible.

I've been thrown from one side of our cockpit to the other - its about 3m - without touching anything on the way. 'All' I did was crack a rib when I hit the other side. But on the foredeck when transferring a tether? I appreciate you should be using 2 hooks (I use 2 tethers) - but that recommendation is only current on Clipper since the incident - and may not be widely known.

A point of the work that PS had done is that there are devices that do not have the weakness illustrated/simulated in their work.

Jonathan
 
I think there is a danger of missing the point here.
If the jackstay is not properly in the clip, it makes no difference whether the clip bends and fails or simply falls off the jackstay.
 
lw395 said:
I think there is a danger of missing the point here.
If the jackstay is not properly in the clip, it makes no difference whether the clip bends and fails or simply falls off the jackstay.
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I agree but see it from a different perspective. If the hook design is such that it can easily be used wrongly then there is an issue. When I moved to tape jackstays I found that the hook fouling the tape was not that uncommon and required a diligent check.
 
Spinlock supply the lifejacket/harnesses for the current Volvo race. The various press releases, some independent, and quotes on the Spinlock website suggest that in addition to the lifejacket/harnesses Spinlock will be supplying, and as it is not corrected, are supplying other essential equipment.

http://www.marinebusinessworld.com/...the-Volvo-Ocean-Race/-158637?source=google.au

The above link provides the best image I can find of the harnesses/lifejackets - with tether and hook. For detail of Spinlock's tether and hook:

https://www.spinlock.co.uk/en/categories/safety-lines/product_groups/safety-lines

There may be better images - I have not made an exhaustive search.

I cannot find a hook that is the same as the image as the one depicted on the Spinlock website - but I can find one on the Kong website, specifically the Kong Tango.

https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/493...MIopOoloi-2AIViwoqCh1coAEzEAQYBCABEgJdOfD_BwE

This image, from Marine Business is identical to one on the Spinlock website, but for me the MB image is better.

I find it interesting that Spinlock are depicting, apparently, a competitors hook on their equipment on their website.

Someone who knows more of Spinlock's and Kong's equipment might indicate I am incorrect - and if so I sincerely apologise.

Jonathan

edit, after posting I provided links for both Spinlock tether and hooks and that for Kong. close edit

Further edit: I confess I'm not quite as sharp as I imply - I did have someone contact me with the detail posted above - but I did check, and did think the pictures were 'amibiguous'. If Volvo are using Kong Tango hooks, in preference to Spinlock hooks - in combination with Spinlock life vests/harnesses - for me it raises further questions.

I also wonder why the depicted Spinlock/Volvo lifejackets/harnesses do not include, or do not seem to include, crotch straps - but would not want to introduce thread drift.

close further edit.
 
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Neeves said:
What was your interpretation of the RKJ interview?
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It was that the clip was attached to the jackstay properly but was up against a cleat and so the pull from the tether on the clip was off centre. Also, IIRC, he said there was a bang reported by the crew so presumably something failed catastrophically.

Re the two clips point, it's been standard RYA sea school advice for years to use a three-point tether on the foredeck so I'd be surprised if Clipper practice was to a lower standard. On the other hand, the offshore racing rule to only have one tether per two people is probably outdated (you might be unpopelar if you grab half the boats allocation to use two tethers :)). I'm sure at the current cost of these things a race boat owner could provide one each even if the crew didn't bring their own.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
I agree but see it from a different perspective. If the hook design is such that it can easily be used wrongly then there is an issue. When I moved to tape jackstays I found that the hook fouling the tape was not that uncommon and required a diligent check.
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An issue seems to be that the pin groove catches the tape, particularly tape rather than rope, and in the dark and under pressure to complete some task or other the fact the gate is not correctly closed can be missed, dark, jackstay covered in water etc. Some hooks do not have a pin groove and this issue is lessened, though obviously the tape can still catch in the gate (this would again be lessened with rope - as the tape is very unlikely to be pinned it will either be secured or fall out). Stainless wire, jackstays, would be worse - as it could fit neatly into the groove.

Jonathan
 
lpdsn said:
It was that the clip was attached to the jackstay properly but was up against a cleat and so the pull from the tether on the clip was off centre. Also, IIRC, he said there was a bang reported by the crew so presumably something failed catastrophically.

Re the two clips point, it's been standard RYA sea school advice for years to use a three-point tether on the foredeck so I'd be surprised if Clipper practice was to a lower standard. On the other hand, the offshore racing rule to only have one tether per two people is probably outdated (you might be unpopelar if you grab half the boats allocation to use two tethers :)). I'm sure at the current cost of these things a race boat owner could provide one each even if the crew didn't bring their own.
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My understanding was similar. Though no-one confirmed attachment to the jackstays - just correctly secured, possibly jackstays, possibly a hard point - but I did not press, its a sensitive issue when you speak to people involved - and not the reason I was there.

However having been on one of these yachts you would need to be on the foredeck to see that level of detail (that the tape was not caught in the gate) - they are very big (long) and someone in the cockpit would be very unlikely to see this level of detail - as its a long way and you are looking along the deck. If something other than the hook failed catastrophically I'd expect that to have been made public - and the few I spoke to made no mention of other gear failure. I might expect the jackstay itself to make a bang as the tension was 'lost', and it slapped the deck, as the hook parted company. The fact that the updated recommendation was to use 2 hooks (I understood this to mean the 2 hooks on one tether, not 2 tethers) - suggests it was not standard practice. There was one 3 hook tether and harness for every crew member hanging at the companionway steps (there may have been others - but they were not in view and immediately to hand). The jackstays appeared copious, adequate and tape.

Sanya came into the nearby pontoon when I was there and all crew were wearing harnesses and lifejackets - and this was in the shelter of Sydney Harbour. Safety seemed paramount - but this was after the event. Certainly after the previous MAIB report it is difficult to believe correct use of tethers and harnesses was not a very high priority.

Jonathan
 
Neeves said:
However having been on one of these yachts you would need to be on the foredeck to see that level of detail (that the tape was not caught in the gate) - they are very big (long) and someone in the cockpit would be very unlikely to see this level of detail - as its a long way and you are looking along the deck. If something other than the hook failed catastrophically I'd expect that to have been made public - and the few I spoke to made no mention of other gear failure. I might expect the jackstay itself to make a bang as the tension was 'lost', and it slapped the deck, as the hook parted company. The fact that the updated recommendation was to use 2 hooks (I understood this to mean the 2 hooks on one tether, not 2 tethers) - suggests it was not standard practice. There was one 3 hook tether and harness for every crew member hanging at the companionway steps (there may have been others - but they were not in view and immediately to hand). The jackstays appeared copious, adequate and tape.
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I believe there were others close by retrieving the other MoB so I'm hoping the MAIB will have got a few eye witness accounts from the bow. I feel in some ways we are getting ahead of ourselves. Given the thoroughness of the recent Louisa report and the willingness to tackle questions about SOLAS lifejackets and the UK Coastguard organisation I'm very hopeful that MAIB will thoroughly investigate this and challenge accepted good practice and accepted kit standards if they need challenging. We'll have a better debate when we have more facts.
 
lpdsn said:
I believe there were others close by retrieving the other MoB so I'm hoping the MAIB will have got a few eye witness accounts from the bow. I feel in some ways we are getting ahead of ourselves. Given the thoroughness of the recent Louisa report and the willingness to tackle questions about SOLAS lifejackets and the UK Coastguard organisation I'm very hopeful that MAIB will thoroughly investigate this and challenge accepted good practice and accepted kit standards if they need challenging. We'll have a better debate when we have more facts.
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I agree

But I'm not planning to stop sailing whilst I wait and as I cross Bass Strait, noting it is summer here, as a couple I want advise now, not in (hopefully?) 11 months time. Any immediate investigation and conclusions that are available now will determine how we change our tethers, which seems to now be suspect (or not clear of doubt). I imagine most people reading this thread will not want to abandon their European summer sailing and will also want to amend their equipment - should they have similar doubts to ours and I doubt the MAIB report will be available till the, your, Autumn.

Clipper also have doubts - as they are recommending use of 2 hooks, or 2 tethers.

I confess to having a more cavalier approach to my safety than those for whom I am responsible - but if there is a better tether, with less doubts, I'll buy them. In the grand scheme of things tethers, or hooks, are not expensive. So if as a result of this thread, the scheduled article from Practical Sailor and any other investigation a hard and reliable conclusion is drawn - I will take note.

I will not be prepared to wait till October for the MAIB.

My interest in this thread is thus very selfish - altruism has gone out of the window! My question to those I spoke to at Clipper were for my own benefit. When I looked at the Clipper yachts it again was to try and see, based on my own background, was there anything i could learn for me, my wife and I in terms of safety (I was there primarily to discuss Coppercoat and ground tackle).

I can wait for the PS article - but my current conclusion is to retire our Spinlock hooks and tethers, retire our Gibb hooks (which are or were 'spares') and invest in Kong Tangos (but I might need to change my mind when the article is published and then change again once the MAIB report is published). Hooks are cheap

I might add - I will try to confirm that Volvo are using Kong Tangos - as this will cement my current conclusions which were originally developed based on Thinwater's comments - on this thread. The fact that it seems Volvo agree with Thinwater - just reinforces what he said.

Jonathan
 
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