Terrible news from Clipper

[lw395]

I think we can over-analyse how various clips or other equipment might fail and miss the greater point.
There is an old saying 'one hand for the ship, one hand for yourself'.
People who have been around boats a lot tend to move around boats differently to 'landlubbers'.
They keep a hand free to hold on. They sit or stand in places where they will be safe if the boat heels or hits some wash.
People who have well-developed 'boat sense' are very much less likely to be falling on their harnesses.
Perhaps this is more noticeable with more down to earth boating than the likes of Clipper.

But it's easier to write rules about tethers and so forth than it is to get people to think about how they are going to move across the deck.

 

[[163233]]

People who have been around boats a lot tend to move around boats differently to 'landlubbers'.

The chap who's sad death kicked off this thread, had actually been around boats a lot.

 

[savageseadog]

The chap who's sad death kicked off this thread, had actually been around boats a lot.

It comes back to what I said earlier about the illusion of safety

 

[dunedin]

I think we can over-analyse how various clips or other equipment might fail and miss the greater point.
There is an old saying 'one hand for the ship, one hand for yourself'.
People who have been around boats a lot tend to move around boats differently to 'landlubbers'.
They keep a hand free to hold on. They sit or stand in places where they will be safe if the boat heels or hits some wash.
People who have well-developed 'boat sense' are very much less likely to be falling on their harnesses.
Perhaps this is more noticeable with more down to earth boating than the likes of Clipper.

But it's easier to write rules about tethers and so forth than it is to get people to think about how they are going to move across the deck.

Yes in general for most cruising boats. But when a race boat in the Southern Ocean submarines under a wave at 15+ knots this tends to be more force than anybody can hold on to. Not saying this was definitely the case in this instance, but certainly very probable by the fact that multiple people were swept overboard.
This wasn’t a cross channel sail in a Bavaria

 

[zoidberg]

I won't suggest I have definitive answers to the questions about wholly reliable means of staying attached, but here are a couple of pics which might provoke some thought....

IMG_5165

and

IMG_5168


The webbing is a climbers' loop/sling purchased at a local climbers' store, and constructed to UIAA standards. Many tape-widths and lengths are available.. Note, please, the use of simple cow hitches.

 

[lw395]

Yes in general for most cruising boats. But when a race boat in the Southern Ocean submarines under a wave at 15+ knots this tends to be more force than anybody can hold on to. Not saying this was definitely the case in this instance, but certainly very probable by the fact that multiple people were swept overboard.
This wasn’t a cross channel sail in a Bavaria

Very true.
Boat of this speed, intended for this environment should be designed with some regard to 'human factors', such as 'how do we move around safely?' 'when and why do we need to move around?' etc.

The concept of a tether on your lifejacket is really conceived more from the needs of your Bavaria crossing the Channel.

 

[penberth3]

I won't suggest I have definitive answers to the questions about wholly reliable means of staying attached, but here are a couple of pics which might provoke some thought....

IMG_5165

and

IMG_5168


The webbing is a climbers' loop/sling purchased at a local climbers' store, and constructed to UIAA standards. Many tape-widths and lengths are available.. Note, please, the use of simple cow hitches.

You haven't said what material - Nylon?

First thought, with respect to inadvertent side-loading, your hooks look so much stronger than the standard "Gibb" type that are just stamped out of sheet steel.

Secondly, it looks short-ish, but it's not adjustable for length. If it lets you go over the side it's too long. Easy adjustment would be a good thing.

Finally, I would occasionally undo the hitches to check the webbing, and maybe re-tie in a different position every time you do this. Don't just fit and forget.

(Btw, I've always called that knot a lark's head rather than a cow hitch.)

 

[thinwater]

Let me clarify about the test image showing the clip hooked on the nose. The webbing was NOT positioned by unlocking the biner and using fingers. The webbing was positioned by stretching webbing over a tiled floor, locking a carabiner and tether onto the webbing properly, and then stepping on the clip in a twisting motion. This will be described in the full text. Let me repeat. The webbing was NOT positioned by hand in an un-locked carabiner.

The damage reported begins at about 275 pounds. By 300 pounds the biner is wide open. However, the final distorted shape requires about 1000 pounds. Thus, the "bang" was the sound of the biner slipping off whatever it was hooked on at 1000 pounds. That makes a loud bang (I've done lots of load testing).

Unlikely? Certainly, but not million to one. In fact, nose hooking is not that unusual in rock climbing circles, most likely because the fall sample size is thousands of times larger. BTW, there are several other ways this failure and very, very similar looking failures can happen, all of them unusual. However, all of them require roughly that same amount of force with this carabiner.

---

In the video RKJ demonstrated what he thought happened using Witchard hooks. There were no Witchar hooks involved in the incident and the strength and mechanics of Wichard hooks is different.

---

On this and other threads folks have mentioned the need to stay on the boat, and that we should consider the edge to be a 500-foot cliff. No matter how strong the tether and clip, once you fall in the water there are many ways the ocean can beat you to death, and the MOB recovery record in rough conditions is not that reassuring. The folks that say "maybe we are focusing on the wrong thing" have a very worthwhile point, and I'm sure the investigation will discuss it. How can we avoid the hazard of bow work? How can we stay on deck? If we can't guarantee workers will stay on the deck of our current boats, do we need to reconsider yacht design?

My point is that if we really want to look at safety, we need to discard preconceived and traditional notions. Or we have to say we don't care about safety, that we accept risk. Most people that say that have not really stared death in the eye. I felt differently about that after watching a death. 30 years ago while climbing a climber land about 30 feet from me, after he fell 250 feet. Yup, he was dead right there, or rather within 20 minutes. A very long 20 minutes. The equipment did not fail, he simply attached it wrong. I continue to climb to this day, but that incident changed the way I look at safety. It requires good equipment, good training, and keeping your head in the game.

 

[thinwater]

I won't suggest I have definitive answers to the questions about wholly reliable means of staying attached, but here are a couple of pics which might provoke some thought....

IMG_5165

and

IMG_5168


The webbing is a climbers' loop/sling purchased at a local climbers' store, and constructed to UIAA standards. Many tape-widths and lengths are available.. Note, please, the use of simple cow hitches.

Is this a Norsman Gibb Hook? Flip it over; I think it is labeled "Tested 11 KN" on the other side. That is only 1/2 the currently accepted minimum for carabiners. But please flip it over and look for us and for you. It looks cast rather than forged.

The other hook is different. I don't recognize it.

Is either of these still in production?

 

[Poey50]

I won't suggest I have definitive answers to the questions about wholly reliable means of staying attached, but here are a couple of pics which might provoke some thought....



IMG_5165

and

IMG_5168


The webbing is a climbers' loop/sling purchased at a local climbers' store, and constructed to UIAA standards. Many tape-widths and lengths are available.. Note, please, the use of simple cow hitches.

I'd be a bit concerned about the Cow Hitch (aka Lark's Foot, Girth Hitch and Strap Hitch). Coming from climbing and caving circles the general view was that it weakened the sling too much. But I can see that it makes replacing the sling very easy compared with any other method of attachment.

 

[Neeves]

Thinwater touches on this in general but Simon Speirs was recovered quickly - but was dead, or died quickly thereafter. The water would have been cold, but not that cold. Hypothermia should not have killed him that quickly (30 minutes). It has received no focus but all the MOB procedures assume when the MOB is picked up he will be alive. Clipper have procedures, that they practice, to recover comatose MOBs, involving putting another crew member over the side. They appear to have slick operations. To me something else went wrong, maybe he hit his head when he went overboard - but if he simply drowned then there was something wrong with the lifejackets. The MAIB investigation will surely cover this - but if the lifejackets are at fault - again I'd like to know (as I am sure - so would every other owner).

The focus has to be - stay on the boat, because if you part company with the vessel your chances of survival are factorially lower.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Very true.
Boat of this speed, intended for this environment should be designed with some regard to 'human factors', such as 'how do we move around safely?' 'when and why do we need to move around?' etc.

The concept of a tether on your lifejacket is really conceived more from the needs of your Bavaria crossing the Channel.

Having looked at the Clipper boats in Sydney I thought their jackstay pattern was good (though I've never sailed on a yacht so large). I'm obviously no expert - simply a 'user'. There were multiple overlapping jackstays and it was (or would be) convenient to move from cockpit to stern and then to bow, or cockpit to bow, and remain secured to the jack stays. There were multiple hard points in and around the cockpit and around the twin helms. The helms were protected with screens (multihull trampoline fabric). I could not see the bows in detail, tied up most yachts had their headsails on the deck as there is little room for them down below.

The safety gear, foul weather gear, harnesses, lifejackets and tethers was immediately at hand, neatly hung in an 'open' locker, before going on deck - there was no reason not to use it. You could clip onto a 'U' bolt or the jack stays across the cockpit before leaving the shelter of the cabin.

The whole pattern did seem well considered - except I could not see the bow.

The lifelines were completely enclosed with netting - I could not see how anyone could break through - the only way out was over the top.

There has never been a suggestion that the jackstays, lifelines, stanchions etc were in any way inconvenient or inadequate.

Separately the tethers and hooks (and I assume the harnesses and lifejackets) all met (and presumably exceeded) existing standards. Clipper appear to have done nothing untoward and have followed the recommendations from the previous MAIB report to the letter - and these recommendations, the total enclosure of the lifelines with net for example, are more stringent than I see on other yachts, venturing to the same places.

I remain puzzled as to why Spinlock have a picture of their harness with, what appears to be, a competitors hook. I wonder if this is the hook used by Volvo (and the same hook does appear on some Volvo images) and why they chose a Spinlock harness/lifejacket and, also, not the Spinlock tether and hook. I am sure Soinlock would have promoted a complete package - so what prompted Volvo to opt for something else? In the absence of detail possibly someone can trawl through current Volvo images and see if they can identify the hook used.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I was looking at the Volvo list,

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/stati...3397_si-leg-general-2017-18-attachment-03.pdf

of safety equipment and note they carry:

14 x lifejackets and harness

12 x Lifejacket lights (fitted at time of despatch)

10 x 2 Hook lifeline with strain indicator

3 x 3 Hook lifeline with strain indicator

There is at least one other lifejacket and harness (for the swimmer).

I am interested that the majority of the lifelines are 'single' tether - so when they swap to a new attachment point they are exposed for that short period of time. I had always believed that a 3 hook lifeline was standard and the norm.

Whilst other equipment in the list has nominated suppliers - there is no note of who supplies the lifelines (with hooks).

Jonathan

 

[dunedin]

I was looking at the Volvo list,

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/stati...3397_si-leg-general-2017-18-attachment-03.pdf

of safety equipment and note they carry:

14 x lifejackets and harness

12 x Lifejacket lights (fitted at time of despatch)

10 x 2 Hook lifeline with strain indicator

3 x 3 Hook lifeline with strain indicator

There is at least one other lifejacket and harness (for the swimmer).

I am interested that the majority of the lifelines are 'single' tether - so when they swap to a new attachment point they are exposed for that short period of time. I had always believed that a 3 hook lifeline was standard and the norm.

Whilst other equipment in the list has nominated suppliers - there is no note of who supplies the lifelines (with hooks).

Jonathan

Interesting. But also this is boats sailed entirely by elite full time professional racers.
When they have to go on the foredeck they will be very active moving around - and some significant dangers due to rig loads etc if can’t move quickly to avoid a sail or rope. Hence probably limited opportunity to use 3 hook tethers unless say doing a repair job.
However, I would certainly think they would want the strongest tethers possible for when it does go wrong.

 

[Zing]

Thinwater touches on this in general but Simon Speirs was recovered quickly - but was dead, or died quickly thereafter. The water would have been cold, but not that cold. Hypothermia should not have killed him that quickly (30 minutes). It has received no focus but all the MOB procedures assume when the MOB is picked up he will be alive. Clipper have procedures, that they practice, to recover comatose MOBs, involving putting another crew member over the side. They appear to have slick operations. To me something else went wrong, maybe he hit his head when he went overboard - but if he simply drowned then there was something wrong with the lifejackets. The MAIB investigation will surely cover this - but if the lifejackets are at fault - again I'd like to know (as I am sure - so would every other owner).

The focus has to be - stay on the boat, because if you part company with the vessel your chances of survival are factorially lower.

Jonathan

The cause of death was stated as presumed drowning, I expect that is because he wasn’t expected to die of hypothermia in only half an hour in the water, but you can be rendered unconscious in half the fatal exposure time. You only need to be in water at say 2deg for 15 mins to be unconscious. He would have been unable to keep his water shield intact or keep his head out of the water so well and would have been more likely to have drowned very soon after. If he was cold to start with he would have died or become unconscious because of hypothermia in a much shorter time anyway. He was also probably quite ill from the initial dragging episode. It seems to me a likely initiating factor if not the actual cause was hypothermia once he was in the sea.

So, in cold water you need to be wearing an immersion suit if there is any chance you will fall in. If you are tethered to the bow in such a way that you can overhang the leeward edge then you might have to be cut free and therefore need to be wearing an immersion suit in those waters.

It would be best if you fix attachment points so you just can’t fall over the edge. You really never should end up in the sea. It’s just too dangerous, especially in these temperatures and conditions.

 

[thinwater]

I have been told b several people closely involved that the reason for single tethers is that people don't fall when they are mooving, just when they are working. When they are moving, they are holding on and are focused on movement and the motion of the boat and waves. When working you are not focused on waves and the motion of the boat, may not be holding on, and are at much greater risk. They believe that being unclipped for a few moments, if you are paying attention, presents minimal risk.

Every MOB I am aware of was working, not moving.

Thus, the interest in hard points and work station tethers. On my last boat I had 2 legs; one over 2 meters, because it was a cat with a large deck, and the other quite short. I'm still fiddling with the needs of my new boat, but I think a single tether may be better. Also remember that you can shorten up a single by taking it around a jackline or rail.

 

[Zing]

https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_67/features/Raising-the-Bar-on-Lifelines_12035-1.html[/URL]
View attachment 68269

What's going on here? - your belt clip/carabiner looks unhealthy.

 

[thinwater]

What's going on here? - your belt clip/carabiner looks unhealthy.

No belt clip. What you are seeing is my secondary clip just hanging from the tether. The tiny non-locking carabiner is just a parking spot

Maybe this image makes it more clear. Also you can shorten a tether even more by taking it around something. I am clipped to a stay added for this purpose; the mast is high on the cabin top and a low clipping point adds little security.

I've never been a Gibb hook fan. You can see me using a combination of screw locks and a Kong Tango. All very strong. The tether its self is bespoke 8 mm climbing rope for impact absorption.

 

[lw395]

What's going on here? - your belt clip/carabiner looks unhealthy.

More a case of fundamentally bad practice of working outside the lifelines. Bring the sail in.

 

[Zing]

More a case of fundamentally bad practice of working outside the lifelines. Bring the sail in.

I think that looks OK. The tether is taut - if he fell over he should be held off the water and in those calm conditions should have no problem getting back on board..