Terrible news from Clipper

[lpdsn]

I think the standard was written with smaller, slower yachts in mind.
I'm not sure I could undo a Gibb hook while being dragged underwater at a random angle at 15 knots or whatever.

And you probably don't even have to be going that fast. Underlines the importance of slowing or stopping the boat if someone is over the side with a tether attached.

IIRC, there was a woman who fell overboard on the way back from Cork Week in maybe 2010 or 2012. From a J109 I think. The report there was she couldn't reach the Spinlock line to cut it and had to wriggle out of the harness to avoid being drowned.

 

[Brent Swain]

+1.

I wonder whether it would be feasible to have say chest high solid guard rails?

I have used only solid top rails, 3 ft above the decks, for the last 41years. Wouldn't cruise without them. While mine are welded to the top of the bulwark ,on a plastic boat they would have the added advantage of minimizing loads, movement, and thus leaks at the bases.
I have lost 4 friends due to their lack of adequate lifelines.
Standard, absurdly Yotti life lines, are abysmally inadequate.
At sea, I rig an extra line to a point chest high on the shrouds, to the bow pulpit, and to a canopy hoop aft , giving me a chest high lifeline most of the way around the boat. At sea, it is not in the way of anything.
Having a roller furler means not having to to leave the cockpit in increasing winds, a huge safety factor. A canopy over the cockpit makes the walk back to trim the windvane feel a lot more secure, and feel far less like a space walk, in rough weather.
My tether attaches to the top of my shoulder, not the centre of my chest, so my bow wave wont drown me if I end up being dragged by it, which can kill a man in the water quickly, and has.
When being dragged by the centre of the chest at over 4 knots, the body builds up a bow wave, which completely covers your head, drowning you. Being dragged by the back makes it more comfortable, but there is no way you can reach the tether to help yourself . Being dragged by the top of the shoulder lets you do both, breath, and help yourself.

 

[thinwater]

I think the standard was written with smaller, slower yachts in mind.
I'm not sure I could undo a Gibb hook while being dragged underwater at a random angle at 15 knots or whatever.

Another point, I've seen people with krabs sourced from the climbing world, these things often seem to corrode in a nasty way aboard a yacht.

I've been using Kong Tangos for 10 years. If I left them in a bucket of seawater they would corrode. I don't do that. I do leave them out in the rain now and then and I lube them once a year. Still working like new, though I sacrificed one of them to testing.

Screw lock carabiners can be problematic if not lubed. If lubed... I've had some of those for over a decade, with minimal maintenance.

The standard was last seriously revised ~ 17 years ago in the wake of the Hobart tragety. Plenty of boats were hitting 20 knots then. Mine was.

 

[Neeves]

I carry alloy carabiners and alloy mast climbers on the yacht and have done for years. I look after them, in the same way I look after other critical equipment. I do not leave them on deck, I try to lubricate frequently and I try to wash in freshwater whenever possible. If you leave a carabiner out on your foredeck it will corrode, even if only the spring - what do you expect?

I'm not sure why there might be an attitude that safety equipment does not need to be serviced and that it will last for ever. You service your life raft, replace or service your fire extinguishers, you replace your headsail sheets, you renew your insurance - why don't you replace jackstays and wash and lubricate your hooks?

Jonathan

 

[Simondjuk]

Your research was incomplete, leading to a bold statement. The party trick was with a non-locking carabiner. Anyone can do that. I did not suggest that. You did not look up key-lock type k carabiners. The key lock ONLY refers to the nose design. The rest of the carabiner is a separate matter.

The climbing market is going to keylock for a number of good reasons. Snagging is just one of them. I have done strength testing with Gibb-style biners and I will not use them. They are a weak, awkward, long-obsolete design IMO. No serious improvements in decades.

These ARE on the market and they meet marine, climbing, and firefighting standards. Very common in the US. I actually prefer them without the quick release, but that is because I sail multihulls (no lee bow wave).
View attachment 68171

http://www.cmcrescue.com/equipment/kong-tango-carabiner/

I've seen the tethers shown above for sale in the US along with a version with a third Kong carabiner replacing the snap shackle at the harness attachment point. I wrote the snap shackle version off at a stroke as inadequate but thought the one with all three points fitted with the Kong carabiners looked neat, so inspected it more closely.

The first thing I found was that both actions required to make up the double action were on the outside of the carabiners, which made me dubious as to their ability to resist accidental opening. On pulling the carabiner through the crook of my bent elbow by the webbing, I found that the crude and random contact of one part of my arm on the lock and the other part on the gate would open it every time. Disappointed and concerned that what at first glance looked like a neat piece of kit opened so easily and consistently with such a simple simulated accidental release action, I put it down and walked away.

 

[Neeves]

If the American and European standard are different and are different for different 'industries', firemen, sailors - I have to wonder why - given they are used as, or for, fall protection. If the American standards are higher - I'd rather be a wimp and an American - though I might have considerable difficulty at immigration - just as a starter and I'd need to learn how to spell!

The standards should be the lowest minimum and hopefully some manufacturers have a higher specification. It would be interesting, in the fullness of time, to see a spreadsheet of standards, for the 'main' different countries, the main industries/applications, how these standards match to specifications from different manufacturers and how these specifications compare with actual test results.

 

[thinwater]

I've seen the tethers shown above for sale in the US along with a version with a third Kong carabiner replacing the snap shackle at the harness attachment point. I wrote the snap shackle version off at a stroke as inadequate but thought the one with all three points fitted with the Kong carabiners looked neat, so inspected it more closely.

The first thing I found was that both actions required to make up the double action were on the outside of the carabiners, which made me dubious as to their ability to resist accidental opening. On pulling the carabiner through the crook of my bent elbow by the webbing, I found that the crude and random contact of one part of my arm on the lock and the other part on the gate would open it every time. Disappointed and concerned that what at first glance looked like a neat piece of kit opened so easily and consistently with such a simple simulated accidental release action, I put it down and walked away.

Awfully quick judgment for what has been standard industrial design for 3-4 decades. You will find these are far more common and far more used in high places, on a daily basis, than any sailing design. Probably by more than 1000 to 1.

More dangerous, IMHO, is a release inside the hook, where the jackline itself can unlatch it (Google it and you will see reports of jamming).

One litmus test is common usage. Google double acting hooks and see how many (any?) designs, other than Gibb and descendants use an inside mechanism. I'm not aware of any. Search away. I think we can only conclude it is hopelessly obsolete. https://www.google.com/search?q=double+acting+carabiner+safety&client=firefox-b-1-ab&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjmrOjra7YAhVExWMKHd6bDpoQ_AUICygC&biw=1707&bih=968

I find it quite odd that UK chandleries and rock climbing shops import almost nothing from the US or Europe, yet US and European shops carry gear from all nations. I can buy Petzl, Kong, and Black Diamond clips at the local store, as well as Gibb, Spinlock, and Wichard, but you cannot. I wonder why that is? Is there some reason UK imports are limited?

 

[lw395]

.....

I find it quite odd that UK chandleries and rock climbing shops import almost nothing from the US or Europe, yet US and European shops carry gear from all nations. I can buy Petzl, Kong, and Black Diamond clips at the local store, as well as Gibb, Spinlock, and Wichard, but you cannot. I wonder why that is? Is there some reason UK imports are limited?

You can buy all these brands and more in the UK and EU.
There may be some issues with climbing parts not meeting the EN standard for marine use and v/v.

Don't forget that in an outfit like Clipper, these things are going to be continuously in hard, wet use for weeks on end, a tough test for mixing alloy and ss components.

 

[thinwater]

I point out solutions that are long accepted in practice, on boats, and folks fire off hypothetical problems, not based on actual experience. Enough crying.

What is the solution? Name actual products that work better. I really, really am interested. I would love to test and report on them. Honest. But I don't know of them.

 

[lpdsn]

I point out solutions that are long accepted in practice, on boats, and folks fire off hypothetical problems, not based on actual experience. Enough crying.

What is the solution? Name actual products that work better. I really, really am interested. I would love to test and report on them. Honest. But I don't know of them.

You haven't solved the problem.

There's been a single issue with a clip failing under an unusual load, which hasn't been fully investigated and reported on. So you've fired off with my way is best then got upset when people have pointed out weaknesses in your favorite kit that aren't there in the stuff you're criticising.

There may be something to take onboard from our kit when they finally quantify the failure and come to re-design clips, but to say yours are the best way forward is simply wrong.

 

[thinwater]

I wonder how many times each year a sailor comes up hard on the tether. I think most sailors respond that they never have, so I would guess it is no more that a few percent per year, even for active sailors. Of those, the great majority are probably low force falls, little more than body weight and thus not counting towards the statistic.

Pointless guess work for me. I hope some effort is made to estimate the sample size. I have little feel for it. I wonder if there are as few as a few hundred hard tether falls on sail boats each year, world-wide.

 

[lw395]

I wonder how many times each year a sailor comes up hard on the tether. I think most sailors respond that they never have, so I would guess it is no more that a few percent per year, even for active sailors. Of those, the great majority are probably low force falls, little more than body weight and thus not counting towards the statistic.

Pointless guess work for me. I hope some effort is made to estimate the sample size. I have little feel for it. I wonder if there are as few as a few hundred hard tether falls on sail boats each year, world-wide.

The rumour mill seems to be that a very large proportion of the medium and hard tether falls are happening on Clipper vessels.
Tethers are like motorcycle crash helmets. Something that you wear just in case, not something you test to the limit often.

 

[Neeves]

Hooks should not fail under unusual loads, its a yacht,, unusual loads should be anticipated - and a few hundred kgs is not unusual. if it failed at 1t - different issue but if a hook can fail at a few hundred kg - that load to me sounds 'normal'. it might have been hooked on to something that increased that load, in which case that situation has been kept very quiet - and those of us who use tethers - need to know sooner rather than later.

If there are hooks that are better than Spinlock, I want to know. If Spinlock, or any other hook, has a weakness - I want to know (now - not in 12 months time).

Thinwatwer might not get it exactly right - but he is engendering a discussion and he has conducted tests - any alternative tests been done?

Don't shoot the messenger. The more information we have the better, we can reject it if we do not like it - that's our decsion, but lets encourage the collection of data - quickly.

Jonathan

 

[oldmanofthehills]

My tether attaches to the top of my shoulder, not the centre of my chest, so my bow wave wont drown me if I end up being dragged by it, which can kill a man in the water quickly, and has.

After the Clipper news I have gone and fitting netting between guard rails and deck just like I did on my old boat when I had children aboard. However I am interested in your harness arrangements, the Lion disaster showed the dangers of chest anchor, though I fear in that case failure to quickly bring boat to a stand might have played some part. But anyway I am often alone on deck, no one to stop boat, so clearly existing built in harness of lifejacket is dangerous. I have heard of a rear harness with line brought round to front on velcro or similar, but clearly that has limitations and I am unaware if its available commercially. How does your shoulder harness operate?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Hooks should not fail under unusual loads, its a yacht,, unusual loads should be anticipated - and a few hundred kgs is not unusual. if it failed at 1t - different issue but if a hook can fail at a few hundred kg - that load to me sounds 'normal'. it might have been hooked on to something that increased that load, in which case that situation has been kept very quiet - and those of us who use tethers - need to know sooner rather than later.

If there are hooks that are better than Spinlock, I want to know. If Spinlock, or any other hook, has a weakness - I want to know (now - not in 12 months time).

Thinwatwer might not get it exactly right - but he is engendering a discussion and he has conducted tests - any alternative tests been done?

Don't shoot the messenger. The more information we have the better, we can reject it if we do not like it - that's our decsion, but lets encourage the collection of data - quickly.

Jonathan

Humm well GOOD CONSTRUCTIVE comments there kind Sir

For me the reasoning given by RKJ on the interview did not really explain why ? or what ? or how ? it all happened ?

So looking forward to a more informed explanation in due course, on here of course ?

 

[Resolution]

Hooks should not fail under unusual loads, its a yacht,, unusual loads should be anticipated - and a few hundred kgs is not unusual. if it failed at 1t - different issue but if a hook can fail at a few hundred kg - that load to me sounds 'normal'. it might have been hooked on to something that increased that load, in which case that situation has been kept very quiet - and those of us who use tethers - need to know sooner rather than later.

If there are hooks that are better than Spinlock, I want to know. If Spinlock, or any other hook, has a weakness - I want to know (now - not in 12 months time).

Thinwatwer might not get it exactly right - but he is engendering a discussion and he has conducted tests - any alternative tests been done?

Don't shoot the messenger. The more information we have the better, we can reject it if we do not like it - that's our decsion, but lets encourage the collection of data - quickly.

Jonathan

+1

 

[alant]

The fact that it's a race does not alter the fact that the boats are UK ships subject to regulation.
The people aboard are paying for a package.
They pay up with little or no prior knowledge of the safety issues.
They are not in a position to make the kind of informed decision you could make if you'd already sailed an ocean or two.

There is an intrinsic danger in being aboard a small vessel miles offshore.
There are other dangers which can be either reduced or amplified by the way the craft is operated.

I've only done a couple of ocean crossings, but in those, and in many miles of other sailing, I've not known anyone seriously fall and only be saved by their tether.
If people are routinely testing their tethers, you're doing it wrong.

When sailing back from Long Island to the UK a few years ago, the metal ends of the tethers we purchased at West Marine, failed/bent even under normal load conditions, so some tethers are definitely not effective.

 

[Simondjuk]

Awfully quick judgment for what has been standard industrial design for 3-4 decades. You will find these are far more common and far more used in high places, on a daily basis, than any sailing design. Probably by more than 1000 to 1.

More dangerous, IMHO, is a release inside the hook, where the jackline itself can unlatch it (Google it and you will see reports of jamming).

One litmus test is common usage. Google double acting hooks and see how many (any?) designs, other than Gibb and descendants use an inside mechanism. I'm not aware of any. Search away. I think we can only conclude it is hopelessly obsolete. https://www.google.com/search?q=double+acting+carabiner+safety&client=firefox-b-1-ab&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjmrOjra7YAhVExWMKHd6bDpoQ_AUICygC&biw=1707&bih=968

I find it quite odd that UK chandleries and rock climbing shops import almost nothing from the US or Europe, yet US and European shops carry gear from all nations. I can buy Petzl, Kong, and Black Diamond clips at the local store, as well as Gibb, Spinlock, and Wichard, but you cannot. I wonder why that is? Is there some reason UK imports are limited?

It's quite simple. They looked good but opened accidentally the first and every subsequent time I attempted to cause them to in a very basic manner.

I didn't need to spend any longer repeatedly demonstrating to myself how vulnerable the clips were in this respect to reach the conclusion that they were not to my liking on a sailing harness tether.

For other applications, they are no doubt suitable.

 

[sarabande]

Over 50 years ago I was heavily involved in RORC and Admiral's Cup racing, at a time when harness (and even LJs) were rarely worn by the gorillas in front of the mast. When harnesses were introduced, the standard clip was like this

[/IMG]

and for a couple of years we cheerfully worked with single, then double tethers either from a separate harness or (posh ) from integrated clips on the jacket belt.

Until one day, idly playing around with a clip, someone in the fleet found that when attached to a U bolt or stanchion eye, the clip could be undone with a flick of the line bringing the spring part against an opposite part of the bolt, thus releasing the clip. Additionally there had been some minor snags with the sharp parts of the clip snagging clothing or sheets, and slowing down a racing manouevre.

Though even today I use such clips on board (e.g. to link mooring pennants when I leave my F&A mooring, or store sheets) I would never countenance the use of such a clip like the pic for a lifesaving use. It MIGHT be fine, but the consequences of it NOT being fine are fatal.

Thinwater has offered his experience and testing background, and others have also chipped in.

I'll offer, not a technical engineering solution, but a set of criteria that I want from a clip. And hope that others will add or subtract from the list (which is not in priority order)


1 must be able to be attached and released with one (gloved) hand.

2 the clip must remain connected to the attachment point on the boat with the load in any 360⁰ direction for x, y, z axes

3 no part of the clip shall be capable of snagging on clothing or rope, and thus preventing proper opening or closing of the clip

4 materials and closing mechanisms must be corrosion resistant, or able to be easily cleaned and serviced



I think that it is not possible to ensure that a clip works 100% for every conceivable situation (e.g. should the user be able to trigger the opening mechanism when being towed by the tether) but eliminating the majority of operating and use problems is certainly achievable by good design and engineering. We know from sad experience what does NOT work, and an empirical look at what is effective in other sports and industries (climbing, safety at height working, circuses, window cleaning, etc) will provide features which are important for a sailing safety harness.

 

[lw395]

I think the requirements on a clip for a sailing harness are notably different from typical 'working at height' operations.
Basically, people move around the boat a lot. There are multiple people trying to work in the same area, sharing anchor points or jackstays.

Often they are on deck for the purpose of manually moving heavy/awkward sails. So, there is often the need to move clips while the other hand is not completely free for holding on. ISTM that other people as reliant on their tethers are not doing this, they can, and do, use e.g. screwgate karabs which are not designed to be casually released one handed.

I think we should be thinking about the whole problem. Over-reliance on the backstop of a tether is part of the problem. Better tethers will only be part of a solution.
If indeed we accept there is a problem?

I wonder what the crew rate loss for clippers of the Cutty Sark era was?
I don't think they were too fussy about Gibb clips vs screwgates, going aloft to hand the main course or what have you.

We all know it's possible to sail around the world on a racing yacht without designing in manual teamwork on the foredeck.
Most of the danger could be designed out from the start.