Targa 47 or V48 Open

[ROW]

I'd be grateful for the forum's thoughts on this scenario for a newbie!

We chartered a T47 from BCU at the end of the summer - had a great few days with a skipper on board. It cemented in my mind that I definitely do want a boat in Majorca (hard not to when you live near Edinburgh!). SWMBO rates it out 8 out of 10 so I need to be careful to get that number rising not falling!

My thoughts are that a well looked after T47 would be a good first boat. However SWMBO thinks it's a touch small (I know it's not) so will probably be a 2 season boat if all goes well. I don't want to be responsible for handling anything bigger - a T47 is pretty big and heavy.

However the V48 open is a lot bigger internally and would probably work size-wise for a longer period. Of course it's more money but potentially better value. That said I like the simplicity of the T47's D9s on shafts - if a pod fails it's going to wreck most of the season before it's repaired, and a failure at sea could be dangerous.

Also I'm not sure I understand the advantages of having a Williams - they feel like a complicated bit of kit versus say a 310 RIB with a 9.9hp outboard. If that goes wrong and can't be fixed easily it's a simple case of buying a new (relatively inexpensive) outboard, no flat batteries / significant maintenance to worry about either.

So I'd be grateful for the forum's thoughts on these key questions:

1. Is it stupid to buy a boat that we already know isn't quite big enough - main issue being shortage of dressing space in the master cabin? The T47 was good otherwise.

2. Thoughts on the trade off between an older simpler T47 or a newer more complex V48 Open. As a "learner driver" maybe I should get something not quite as shiny and new??!!

3. Are the advantages of a Williams worth the extra cost and complexity?

4. I know I need to do the ICC but how much more training would be sensible?

By way of context the plan would be to keep the boat in Cala d'Or and used for long weekends up to about 10 days at a time, with 2 on board and possibly some boys trips.

I hope I don't sound terrible querying the size of the T47 - I know it's quite a big boat. Ideally we'd start with a dayboat but SWMBO doesn't want a flat / villa to go with it and the weather is too cold to go boating at home!!

I would be very grateful for the forum's thoughts, and hopefully the debate on drives won't be too controversial!!

 

[Portofino]

Boats are all a mix of compromises - you write your own list of must haves , indifferent and don,t want .
How ever having used it for a season or two ,you end up reshuffling the deck and adding /deleting other "cards " .

So based on that ,cos the 1st boat will turn out (from seemingly right at purchase ) --wrong -it's does not really matter which of the two you get on your short list --- so if it was me - go for the one with minimal outlay and depreciation so,s to make the 2nd deffinitive boat less of a financial disaster in a man maths kinda way .
Pods -that's another no no - cost you more in maintenance and think about selling an ageing pod drive ( out of warranty on ?)
Looking at your specific Q,s
1- yup my wife wanted a cabin with sufficient distance between foot of bed and door. So,s two adults can dress without bumping into each other .
Women look at things different to blokes and it's important as you infer to keep and improve on that 8/10 -so listen to her !
Use her to kill the sales guy / broker -- I do ! --makes an easy get away .

2-T47 -you will bump it - and less depreciation -

3-willys --- lots of hidden ally.If its not rinsed with fresh water as recommended - expect hassle and €€ spend .

4- Radio licence UK - poss negotiate a skipper /instructer --1st week --it's the stern mooring and fuel pontoon that needs finess -- comes with time .

Around 50 ft s plenty big enough to go about the Baldricks ,anchor off some nights ,and get in @15 M marinas ( except August ?) and have extended stays for weeks on end .

There must be some nice Italian 15 M stuff with 12L diesels about ?

IMHO a D9 T47 is underpowered esp in the Med -mid season fouling and kg,s from cursing stores etc .How ever having said that it's one of FL,s better efforts and arguably the pick of the crop for a HT 15 M Med sports cruiser .As long as you are happy @24-26 knots ?

Just an aside wife was fed up with cream wool carpet ( and two kids ) ,high gloss wood finish of our Sunseeker -1st boat -vacu flush bogs too ,hissing etc - domtech -niosey self contained air con -just to list a few examples

So each couple will draw up there own a no no list ---- based on 1st boat

 

[ROW]

Thanks Portofino.

It sounds like we have to accept the first boat will be "wrong"! Does make me wonder about just chattering BCU's T47 a few more times! However I really want my own and I'm not sure further charters would get over the "wrong boat" issue!

I agree on the pods - just want a simple drivetrain - large relatively unstressed diesels on shafts.

1. Glad it's not just me - it's a fair point but it takes me about 5 minutes to get ready post shower so if there's only room for one gives more time for tinkering / a beer / watching the world go by!! Will definitely be listening to SWMBO as it's something I really want to do and we must both enjoy it!!

I've been embarrassed on more than one occasion by SWMBOs clear disinterest in a boat we are looking at so always have that get out of jail card!

2. Hopefully the inevitable bump will be minor and only damage my own boat. I fear damaging someone else's pride and joy hence not wanting to go too large to start.

3. They feel like a hassle and glad to have that confirmed - I want as little hassle as possible. They're also a very expensive solution!

4. Yes radio licence / training is a must as you say! Would definitely do some own boat instruction as part of the deal / an extra. Our charter skipper was very good and let us take the controls most of the time - did have a couple of gos at berthing - no problems but it wasn't windy at all!

I haven't really thought about Italian brands - clearly I need something with a reasonably liquid market as it sounds like I'll be selling in a couple of years! The issues you "discovered" on your boat certainly wouldn't be immediately obvious but thanks for the pointers!

I did notice the T47 wasn't that quick - the charter one had 500s rather than 575s and it was late in the season - 20
knots felt like its comfortable cruising speed. I would only consider 575s and I think 24-26 knots is enough!

Thanks again for your help!

Richard

 

[Bouba]

Pods will allow you to dock like a pro. Do you really want to dismiss them?

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Pods will allow you to dock like a pro. Do you really want to dismiss them?

Mooring without pods really isn't that difficult.

I think Portofino is right - minimise the outlay on your first boat, and use that boat to work out what you really want.

If you want a two cabin sportcruiser on shafts with more dressing space for (new) V48 money, I'd look at an Azimut 62S.

 

[ROW]

Mooring without pods really isn't that difficult.

I think Portofino is right - minimise the outlay on your first boat, and use that boat to work out what you really want.

If you want a two cabin sportcruiser on shafts with more dressing space for (new) V48 money, I'd look at an Azimut 62S.

Yes mooring on the T47 seemed fairly straightforward with twin shafts, and thrusters at both ends!

I would be very uncomfortable trying to handle a 62 in close quarters and not sure I fancy Majorcan berthing / maintenance costs on that size to start with! Think it's important to let the addiction work up first so there's no attempt to rationalise the spending!!

There's a lovely 2015 V48 Open at Sunseeker Majorca - I guess it would be £500k-ish so say £250k-ish more than a 2006-8 T47, but I suspect it might hold its value OK over the next few years given the show boat at Excel was £770k (plus delivery!!). Of course brokerage fees to sell would be higher but doubt the overall cost would be much higher.

This is confusing! I know I don't want a flybridge first time around due to windage concerns - but second boat likely to be flybridge as I see the attraction. Also on the first boat I'd like the platform to be clear for handling lines which may not be done as smoothly as it will be after a couple of seasons - would hate someone to trip over the tender and fall in behind the boat, so that probably means a sports cruiser with a garage.

IPS drives aren't something I want (they'll choose a really bad time to fail and it will be a load of grief getting it sorted out). Hence we get to something like a T47.

On the basis the advice is to spend as little as possible on the first boat, subject to the SWMBO master cabin size issues, is it worth looking at anything smaller or is a T47 the right size to get a feel for the issues on cruising boats in the Med? I suspect anything much smaller would result in SWMBO's enjoyment rating falling rather than rising!

Thanks again to anyone who will help on this one!!

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Yes mooring on the T47 seemed fairly straightforward with twin shafts, and thrusters at both ends!

I would be very uncomfortable trying to handle a 62 in close quarters and not sure I fancy Majorcan berthing / maintenance costs on that size to start with! Think it's important to let the addiction work up first so there's no attempt to rationalise the spending!!

There's a lovely 2015 V48 Open at Sunseeker Majorca - I guess it would be £500k-ish so say £250k-ish more than a 2006-8 T47, but I suspect it might hold its value OK over the next few years given the show boat at Excel was £770k (plus delivery!!). Of course brokerage fees to sell would be higher but doubt the overall cost would be much higher.

This is confusing! I know I don't want a flybridge first time around due to windage concerns - but second boat likely to be flybridge as I see the attraction. Also on the first boat I'd like the platform to be clear for handling lines which may not be done as smoothly as it will be after a couple of seasons - would hate someone to trip over the tender and fall in behind the boat, so that probably means a sports cruiser with a garage.

IPS drives aren't something I want (they'll choose a really bad time to fail and it will be a load of grief getting it sorted out). Hence we get to something like a T47.

On the basis the advice is to spend as little as possible on the first boat, subject to the SWMBO master cabin size issues, is it worth looking at anything smaller or is a T47 the right size to get a feel for the issues on cruising boats in the Med? I suspect anything much smaller would result in SWMBO's enjoyment rating falling rather than rising!

Thanks again to anyone who will help on this one!!

Well, I think the answers you're getting so far are that it is pretty clearly the T47. No matter which way you do the man maths, it is hard to imagine you will lose less in cash terms on a 1 year old £500k V48 than a ten year old £250k T47.

 

[ROW]

Well, I think the answers you're getting so far are that it is pretty clearly the T47. No matter which way you do the man maths, it is hard to imagine you will lose less in cash terms on a 1 year old £500k V48 than a ten year old £250k T47.

Thanks Jimmy

I'm sure that's right although I could do a spreadsheet showing the V48 to be cheaper using PhD level Man Maths!!

What do you think the chances are of getting the right boat second time around or do you find it's just a constant evolution of wishes and priorities?

I find with cars what suits now may not suit in a couple of years as priorities and requirements change and indeed over 10 years have come largely full circle!!

 

[Portofino]

Something like this -a none Volvo engined boat --over powered -relaxing ,sub 2K rpm cruising ,well screwed together ,nice big bathing platform ,and I think large fwd cabin -spacious -you can get them either shaft -i would suggest or Arnesons ,although the Arnies come with €€ maintenance baggage , and are more of a handfull close 1/4 handling .
http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1359509/

 

[ROW]

Something like this -a none Volvo engined boat --over powered -relaxing ,sub 2K rpm cruising ,well screwed together ,nice big bathing platform ,and I think large fwd cabin -spacious -you can get them either shaft -i would suggest or Arnesons ,although the Arnies come with €€ maintenance baggage , and are more of a handfull close 1/4 handling .
http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1359509/

Thanks - the Pershing is gorgeous and have always liked them! However I think it might be somewhat illiquid when it came to sell it on.

It's definitely giving me ideas to broaden my horizons! However I can't help thinking a boat with a decent following in the UK might be a better bet as given the age we're talking about there might be less of a Med market.

I like the idea of slightly over sized engines for the relaxed cruising ability. I think it might be like learning to drive in a Porsche so definitely wouldn't go for surface drives!

 

[Gentlemanracer]

Here's my tuppence worth... boat swapping is expensive and very time consuming too. There are plenty for sale via established brokers, so enjoy the chase & don't be in a hurry. In the Med, time on board is maximised, so I'd go at least one "size" up from what you first think might be right; space is really good & lack of space is really not good at all! Basic engineering (shafts) is less overhead than complex engineering (pods or drives). Comments already made on tender type: agreed! Fuel burn is an issue only if you really do want to go places, else its pottering a little and stopping a lot. Bon chance, or whatever the Catalonian is for that!!

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Thanks Jimmy

I'm sure that's right although I could do a spreadsheet showing the V48 to be cheaper using PhD level Man Maths!!

What do you think the chances are of getting the right boat second time around or do you find it's just a constant evolution of wishes and priorities?

I find with cars what suits now may not suit in a couple of years as priorities and requirements change and indeed over 10 years have come largely full circle!!

It depends on your analytical skills, I guess. My first boat was an 18' speedboat which I thought would do me for a year or two. Thought about it a lot before I bought it and got one that met all the requirements that I'd identified - and in the end I kept it five years. Similarly, my current Targa 40 was only ever meant to be a stopgap - and I've now had it for eight years. Equally however I bought a Princess 42, new, and couldn't get on with it at all and sold it after eight months. So - back to the original point - I think the T47 is a good choice, very solid demand for these so you'll always get back out of it again, and you've already spent time on one so you know it can work.

 

[ROW]

Here's my tuppence worth... boat swapping is expensive and very time consuming too. There are plenty for sale via established brokers, so enjoy the chase & don't be in a hurry. In the Med, time on board is maximised, so I'd go at least one "size" up from what you first think might be right; space is really good & lack of space is really not good at all! Basic engineering (shafts) is less overhead than complex engineering (pods or drives). Comments already made on tender type: agreed! Fuel burn is an issue only if you really do want to go places, else its pottering a little and stopping a lot. Bon chance, or whatever the Catalonian is for that!!

Thanks. Yes I'm sure boat swapping is a hassle and significant cost - I also hate selling things as I hate being dependent on the purchaser!!

I agree about going a size larger - I had initially thought about a V39 or Targa 38 but realise the T38 is definitely too small and the V39 is IPS. Ideally it would be bigger but don't want something that's intimidating to handle - I think a T47 or similar is the biggest I'd be comfortable with.

I'm not too worried about fuel burn as it's a choice how far to go as you mention and I'll view fuel cost as the equivalent of hotel costs!! Man maths at its finest!

Will certainly enjoy the chase and can always charter the BCU T47 again until I find a suitable boat.

 

[ROW]

It depends on your analytical skills, I guess. My first boat was an 18' speedboat which I thought would do me for a year or two. Thought about it a lot before I bought it and got one that met all the requirements that I'd identified - and in the end I kept it five years. Similarly, my current Targa 40 was only ever meant to be a stopgap - and I've now had it for eight years. Equally however I bought a Princess 42, new, and couldn't get on with it at all and sold it after eight months. So - back to the original point - I think the T47 is a good choice, very solid demand for these so you'll always get back out of it again, and you've already spent time on one so you know it can work.

Thanks - you're right a T47 works except for dressing space in the master cabin. However all things are a compromise and I guess no boat will be perfect.

Can I ask what the issues were with the P42? That must have been an expensive swap.

In an ideal world we'd start with a day boat but SWMBO won't countenance a flat / villa down there so it has to be large enough to stay on. May work on that point a bit later as I suspect a smaller boat might be as much fun to start with!

 

[henryf]

What about a Princess V52?

They have been around for a while now and have sold in good numbers so always some on the market. Big volume inside including that full beam owner's cabin. Seems more daunting at first given the high gunwhale but in reality no different to a lower boat.

Simple shafts, bow and stern thrusters add a little wriggle room and boost confidence.

Being a used purchase depreciation should be less money and you may find that you don't need to rush off and change it after 2 years anyway.

On the subject of tenders I have always favoured the 3.2 / 3.4m aluminium hull rib and outboard. Probably 1/4 the cost of a Williams and those outboards are a 5 year plus fit and forget bit of kit. If you want thrills get a small jet ski then mix and match depending on where you are going. Rib / outboard / jet ski package still less than a Williams !

Henry

 

[AllanG]

I had initially thought about a V39 or Targa 38 but realise the T38 is definitely too small and the V39 is IPS.

If I'm not mistaken, the V39 is outdrive not IPS.

 

[ROW]

What about a Princess V52?

They have been around for a while now and have sold in good numbers so always some on the market. Big volume inside including that full beam owner's cabin. Seems more daunting at first given the high gunwhale but in reality no different to a lower boat.

Simple shafts, bow and stern thrusters add a little wriggle room and boost confidence.

Being a used purchase depreciation should be less money and you may find that you don't need to rush off and change it after 2 years anyway.

On the subject of tenders I have always favoured the 3.2 / 3.4m aluminium hull rib and outboard. Probably 1/4 the cost of a Williams and those outboards are a 5 year plus fit and forget bit of kit. If you want thrills get a small jet ski then mix and match depending on where you are going. Rib / outboard / jet ski package still less than a Williams !

Henry

I like the V52 but I feel it might be a little "enclosed" in the cockpit / helm with the closing rear doors for Med usage. For Northern Europe I'd seriously consider one.

As far as I can see they also don't have a tender garage and would prefer to have a clear platform to start with. That said I have noticed they seem to be good value given the extra volume. CAT engines are also appealing given how durable they seem to be, albeit with higher service costs.

Price-wise it's getting close to a one or two season old V48 Open.

It's such a shame most sub 50 foot boats are now IPS - I can see why from a packaging perspective but just don't like the complexity or the engines (weight) being so far aft. I'm also not sure about D6s on a 50 footer - I understand there's a lot less torque than the D9.

Any installation has got to be mechanically straightforward IMHO given the hostile environment caused by movement and salt water.

It's interesting that no one has spoken in favour of the Williams so far. Makes me wonder why you see so many in the Med - only appeal I see is no propeller. Not sure I'd want a jet ski as well at this point but can see the rationale.

It's hard to go past the T47 but maybe I should do the ICC now and then charter a couple more times. Hopefully I could use that time to build enough confidence to go for a 50-ish flybridge as my own boat.

This is like trying to choose a combined car and house (or a car and caravan) before learning to drive!! At least there's no stamp duty so the absolute costs of getting it wrong isn't as bad as buying the wrong house!!

 

[ROW]

If I'm not mistaken, the V39 is outdrive not IPS.

I think the post 2013 V39 (Mk. 3) is IPS only, but the earlier ones are outdrives as I understand it.

 

[AllanG]

I think the post 2013 V39 (Mk. 3) is IPS only, but the earlier ones are outdrives as I understand it.

I trust we are both talking about a Princess V39? If this is the case, then I've just looked at the Princess website, and the current spec is Twin Volvo D6-330 DP (2 x 330mhp), with no mention of IPS drives, so not sure they have ever been an option on this model?

 

[ROW]

I trust we are both talking about a Princess V39? If this is the case, then I've just looked at the Princess website, and the current spec is Twin Volvo D6-330 DP (2 x 330mhp), with no mention of IPS drives, so not sure they have ever been an option on this model?

Yes we are both talking about the Princess V39. I had a look at one in Swanwick last year and was under the impression it was IPS due to the joystick docking system.

If it's not IPS it would definitely come into the running (so thanks for pointing that out!) as it doesn't feel internally much smaller than the T47 but would be a newer boat so potentially fewer problems. I have a feeling the V39 has more space in the master cabin as well. It loses a shower / heads but not too bothered for the two of us (mostly).

Doesn't have a tender garage but does have a hi-lo platform, as well as a large storage locker on the bathing platform if you specify the larger aft sun bed so we could keep the platform clear if we found it necessary.

It's only 5 feet shorter than the T47 and probably has as much interior space due to resin infusion / lack of tender garage.

Hopefully there will be more in the market soon given the launch of the updated V40.