SV "Follow Me Follow You" in difficulties in South Pacific

[lenseman]

If any one is interested, Allan and Rina on board "Follow Me, Follow You", on their Hunter Legend 46 foot yacht in the south Pacific, had rudder failure yesterday and posted an "Urgency" message which was responded to. They seem to be OK now.

At the time, (1720Z 25 OCT) the message read:

1938/2009(76). 46 FOOT S/V FOLLOW ME FOLLOW YOU DISABLED AND ADRIFT DUE TO LOST RUDDER VICINITY 34° 25.50S 174° 19.11E AT 260116Z OCT. VESSELS IN VICINITY REQUESTED TO KEEP A SHARP LOOKOUT, ASSIST IF POSSIBLE.


The message was cancelled at 0433Z 26 OCT:

1939/2009(76). NEW ZEALAND-NORTH COAST. CANCEL HYDROPAC 1938/09 AND THIS MSG, VESSEL ASSISTED.

 

[Jonny_H]

I hope they are ok - we met them in Tahiti / Moorea this year. Fingers crossed they are well.

 

[sarabande]

that's about 45 miles off the coast and many havens, so if it's just the rudder, they are near a tow.

BTW I don't find the boat's name a very easy one to "pick up" and segregate from the rest of the message. It sounds - confusingly - almost like an instruction over VHF.

 

[lenseman]

"Follow Me, Follow You" and crew Allan and Rina are now safe in Paihia, North Island New Zealand. They are being lifted out at Ashby's Boatyard to have a new rudder made and fitted.

Today, they have just posted their 'story' here, now safely back in harbour, although the news of their trouble broke on the 25th October:

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/followyoufollowme/

 

[KellysEye]

I read their report and was staggered when they said they had a GRP rudder stock. Does anybody know if all Bavarias have that?

 

[Bajansailor]

Ummm, she is a Hunter Legend, not a Bavaria......
I think that when they say GRP rudder stock they probably mean composite - so probably fairly hi-tech with carbon and epoxy.
However I remember there was a similar incident a few years ago with a Hunter Legend (about the same size I think) sailing across the Atlantic - their rudder stock snapped, and they ended up abandoning and scuttling the boat.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Ummm, she is a Hunter Legend, not a Bavaria......
I think that when they say GRP rudder stock they probably mean composite - so probably fairly hi-tech with carbon and epoxy.
However I remember there was a similar incident a few years ago with a Hunter Legend (about the same size I think) sailing across the Atlantic - their rudder stock snapped, and they ended up abandoning and scuttling the boat.

Yes, you are right!

I wonder about the use of these high teck materials for the huge spade rudders. Same also goes for the use of Aluminium stocks, as in Hanse yachts. The problems with Carbon composites, is that they don't bend or give warning of breakasge - if they are going to break, they break. Presumably they are much more prone to failing under a shock load as there is no give in the structure?

As for Aluminium, I think that this is asking for trouble, especially if marina based with stray currents. You won't know you have a problem, and there is an arguement for dropping the rudder out every year to inspect the area hidden inside the hull and bearings.

I would prefer an massively over engineered S/S stock.

Anyway, I am glad that they got in OK.

 

[Spicemariner]

the yacht that lost their rudder in the Atlantic was F2. Their rudder stock had been laid up badly. I believe it is quite common for rudder stocks to be made of GRP, if made properly there is no problem and at least you don't have chance of corrosion that you can get in ss stocks.

 

[rivonia]

"Follow Me, Follow You" and crew Allan and Rina are now safe in Paihia, North Island New Zealand. They are being lifted out at Ashby's Boatyard to have a new rudder made and fitted.

Today, they have just posted their 'story' here, now safely back in harbour, although the news of their trouble broke on the 25th October:

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/followyoufollowme/

Thats good news and thanks again David

Peter

 

[sailinglegend420]

We have a Hunter 420 passage and broke our rudder in Biscay going into La Corruna. Only an 11 mile tow but it has cost us a fortune as the insusrance company said there was "no insured event". Which means the rudder wasn't damaged. We hadn't hit anything, the sun was shining with a gentle F4 and suddenly it broke.The failure appears to be due to poor layup of the GRP stock - not a composite or kevlar in sight. I cut the stock into several segments and there are clear folds and air pockets, and strands of glass that haven't been wetted properly. We have two surveyors who say it is faulty workmanship, but Hunter just say it's down to "abuse". The Cat A design of the boat means you should be able to fall of a 6 meter wave with no problems.

We have sent them sections of the stock which they said they would "burn test", but they have not done that. They are returning the bits to us, but it will cost about £700 to get the test done to prove that they layup is at fault. Is it worth it? We are still fighting them for some compensation, but they fall back on the "no warrantee" on rudders and keels clause.

I enclose a cross section of part of the stock showing the "voids". This was at least 8" from the part where the rudder broke - right at the narrowest part at the upper bearing.

 

[Bajansailor]

In reply to Sailinglegend - where did the break occur on the stock? I am guessing probably just above the top of the rudder, perhaps in way of where the stock goes into the bearing?

I hope you kept the two broken sections 'as they were' for future reference (evidence?) - or at least took some photos of the break (can you post any more photos on here?).

The section shown above does smack of poor lay-up with various voids visible. What is the overall diameter of your stock?
In theory, a large diameter thin wall tube should generally be stronger (higher 2nd moment of area) than a smaller, thicker (or even solid) stock of the same material / modulus.
But we all know that what happens in theory is not always the same in practice.

Here we have three reported failures of rudder stocks now for the larger Hunter Legends.
And I know a singlehanded chap who arrived here a few years ago from the Canaries on his 28' Hunter minus his rudder - it was a stainless steel stock (a much older boat) and it had fractured when he was still a week or so out of Barbados. He managed to jury rig an emergency rudder that got him close enough to Barbados so that he could get a tow for the last leg in to port.

PS - Re burn tests - a sample of laid up fibreglass is weighed, and then it is set on fire to burn away the resin, leaving the glass cloth behind. Which is then weighed, so they can see what the average resin / glass ratio was for that sample.

 

[sailinglegend420]

More photos attached.

The stock goes from the bottom bearing at 6" to the top bearing at 3", with an average wall thickness of about 10mm. Aparently in their destructive testing Hunter say the fibreglass stock lasted longer than a stainless steel shaft. But we all know how easy it is to get a poor layup in fibreglass.

There are now 18 reported cases of Hunters with broken rudders - Hunter say two are down to faulty layup. They also say that by any bodies standards my 2002 boat is "very old"!

We love the design and layout of our Hunter and had planned on crossing the Atlantic after cruising the Med, but my wife has now lost all confidence in the boat. I can see now what you get for that extra £100,000 price tag.

 

[Bajansailor]

Thanks for posting the photos above.
The 'black tube' in the photos - is this attached to the quadrant?

It looks like the failure was in shear mode inside the black tube (?) - is this where it is 3" diameter?
When the rudder failed, did the stock remain where it was (due to positive buoyancy forcing it upwards?
I would have thought it would be much easier (hence cheaper) to mould a rudder stock that is constant diameter - and if it was larger diameter at the top, then there would be less shear stress (assuming constant wall thickness).

Re restoring your wife's confidence - it is highly probable that a properly effected repair will be stronger than the original, especially if epoxy is used.
In addition, you could perhaps look at installing a wind vane self steering system that has its own independent rudder (eg the Hydrovane) - it just takes a bit of lateral thinking to mount one on a vessel with a swim platform. Some have been off-set to one side, and I even saw one once where the shaft of the Hydrovane went through a tube glassed into the platform to the rudder underneath.

 

[oldsaltoz]

Following a private post I was asked to post this.

Few if any of the major boat builders actually build their own rudders, this is outsourced and in many cases I suspect, to a cost effective supplier.

Looking at the outer mould section of a fabricated rudder stock will show nothing in relation to how well or poorly it was constructed. You have to cut into rings to find and destroy it in the process.

Another practice designed to save weight is the use of a fibreglass rudder stock tube. Indeed I recently discovered our cat has them and the port side tube cracked at the top, above the waterline so no major, but access was a major problem.

I plan to replace the fibreglass tubes with stainless steel tubes and keep the stainless steel rudder stocks.

From what I have seen of failed composite rudder stocks, I would have to say the break looks like a result of twisting rather then end loading though.

The good rudders (In my book anyway) are s/steel stock with gussets to the stock on the horizontal tangs an a single section of flat bar along the training edge of all tangs from top to bottom.
The top tang should be not closer than 150 mm from the hull and the lower tang more than 300 mm from the bottom of the rudder, this is to allow sacrificial breakaway to happen without damage to the integral structure.
'O' rings should be installed at the top of the rudder to prevent moisture entering, I have been doing this for about 30 years with no problems on many rudders and think I was the first to try it.
The internal void should be filled with 'Closed Cell' foam and Q-Cells to fill any remaining voids.
Almost all rudders should have some balance applied, 12% of the total area ahead of the shaft is good, as are mechanical rudder stops set aroud 35*.

I hope this helps some poor sole.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[FollowYou]

Follow You Follow Me here...

Hi All,

Thanks to SailingLegend420 for alerting me to this thread...

I'm not sure who posted the urgency message, but I assume it was someone associated with New Zealand Maritime Radio.

We are a 2003 Hunter 466...

We were adrift for about 15 minutes before we rigged a drogue and headsail to get sailing again. Luckily the west winds gave us a beam reach at 180 True, right for Opua. More detail on the blog for those who want it.

As we are now involved with insurance, I'll hold my comments re: rudder shafts failures, but from a design standpoint, Hunter says the use of composites ensured that in a collision, the rudder shaft would fail before the stronger S/S shaft would potentially tear up the bottom of the hull... Not unlike what happened with JWorld on the Baha Haha this week, where a whale reportedly bashed the rudder repeatedly, and water intrusion was the result. I can see the logic, even if my gut says I would take a stronger rudder any day over the potential for a collision that compromised the hull around the rudder.

I'm looking at a locally built custom rudder, stainless shaft and tabs, glass exterior.

I'll post pics when we get hauled in a couple of weeks.

allan

 

[sailinglegend420]

Thanks for posting the photos above.
The 'black tube' in the photos - is this attached to the quadrant?

It looks like the failure was in shear mode inside the black tube (?) - is this where it is 3" diameter?
When the rudder failed, did the stock remain where it was (due to positive buoyancy forcing it upwards?

Thanks for posting the photos above.
The 'black tube' in the photos - is this attached to the quadrant?

It looks like the failure was in shear mode inside the black tube (?) - is this where it is 3" diameter?

One more picture which shows the 3" diameter top of the shaft that was actuall inside the top bearing. As oldsaltoz suggest it does look more like a twisting failure, indeed the voids in the folds went from 8" below right up into the 6" diameter top bearing.

The rudder stayed in the post and we floated it out in the marina without having to take te boat out of the water.

We had problems for twelve months before the break with turning to starboard in strong winds - or even motoring with a lot of engine power. We were intending to try and sort the probllem in La Coruna - but never made it!

We had another rudder made by Hunters outside supplier Foss Foam - but that's another story!! The bottom bearing was 20mm off centre of the s/s shaft and we sent photos to both Hunter and Foss Foam suggesting that it would not fit. They both said NO PROBLEM - it came out of the jig so it will be fit. Unfortunately thay must have taken it out before the epoxy holding the bottom bearing had set and it sagged. With any half decent quality check you could see it was off centre - one of the pictures I sent them attached just for amusement. Foss foam have failed to pay all my expenses and I am still fighting them!

 

[lenseman]

Thanks to SailingLegend420 for alerting me to this thread...

I'm not sure who posted the urgency message, but I assume it was someone associated with New Zealand Maritime Radio.

Hiya Allan - Welcome to the forum. It was me. I was monitoring the Indian Ocean traffic regarding the pirate hijacking of 'Lynn Rival' when I spotted your Mayday message of 01:16GMT being re-broadcast by the American Intelligence Agency [UPPERCASE].

I copied it verbatim as you can see at the start of this thread. I also included the cancellation 3¼ hours later at 04:33GMT.

I also posted message #4 regarding your write up you posted when you arrived in New Zealand. Glad you are getting it all sorted.

BTW, I am in southern UK and spent 25 years in government radio communications.

 

[lenseman]

. . . Not unlike what happened with JWorld on the Baha Haha this week, where a whale reportedly bashed the rudder repeatedly, and water intrusion was the result. . . .

The press story of the J-120 on the Baha Haha Rally here:

http://www.10news.com/news/21457298/detail.html

and here on PPJ:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pacificpuddlejump/message/2477

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day Allan,

Any idea what that composite stock was made of?

-

 

[FollowYou]

Rudder post materials

Oldsaltoz,

Only know that it is a rolled glass sandwich of some sort.... Sailinglegend420 is way ahead of me on the learning curve on this, he might chime in to answer you.

We get hauled today, so I will have more info on the failure to share in a couple of days.

allan