Survey results...

[MacMan]

Just had my pre purchase survey done on "my" 1989 Prout 33.

First things first and credit where it is due, the surveyor, Martin Evans, (shipshape @ ntlworld.com) has done an excellent thorough job and I recommend to him anyone. I was frustrated by the fact it took 6 days to get a copy of the report but when I see the detail I can see why.

Overall the results of the survey (24 pages) were very enourgaing and confirmed our own impressions of a well looked after vessel but there were some things of note. I have phoned the Martin and talked through these points and he confirms that there is nothing dramatic here but I would welcome the views of the forum. The current owner is currently reviewing the survey but has made some noises to the effect that all of these are trivial and don't need any attention now/warrant a price negotiation beyond the pre survey price argreed. I welcome your thoughts...

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Rudders

Both rudder blades had a history of repair at the time of the 1998 survey. In course of the current survey they were found to be in satisfactory condition, though as is commonly found on rudders of this construction moisture readings were appreciably higher than those on the hull (at 60 - off scale’ on Scale 1 of the Tramex meter, 18 or higher on both scales of the Sovereign meter for comparison). Additionally one relatively small blister was found on either rudder blade and it is probable that more could be found if paint coatings were removed. The blisters which were seen were as follows:

• Of about 6mm diameter, on the outboard side of the starboard rudder 195mm forward of the trailing edge and 320mm from the lower edge of the blade
• Of 3mm diameter on outboard side of port rudder, 15mm forward of the trailing edge and 345mm from the lower edge.

Recommendation – Although the blisters seen on rudders are clearly osmotic in nature (their cavities containing fluid having a pH of 3 (very acidic) as measured using indicator papers, hence presumably established for some years) they are not of structural threat to the hull and no action other than opening up these blisters, flushing thoroughly with freshwater, drying then reprofiling with an epoxy-based filler is considered necessary at present, together with routine monitoring of condition in future (there currently appear to be no centreline splits or other problems jeopardising structural integrity).

LPG

Two 4.5kg butane cylinders are mounted in recesses within a self-draining locker beneath the foredeck...
Valves are fitted on either cylinder, then short lengths of flexible gas delivery hose (to BS 3212/2, dated February 1988 and January 1995) connect to a common pressure regulator from which adequately-secured copper gas delivery tubing leads to appliances ....

Recommendation - Renew both lengths of flexible gas delivery tubing as routine procedure on grounds of age (precautionary renewal now required every five years), using recently-manufactured tubing to BS 3212/2. Work on LPG systems should be carried out by a qualified gas installation engineer.

Heater

An Eberspacher D3L diesel-fired cabin heater (of 3200 watts nominal maximum output) is fitted within the engine compartment...

The heater was seen to operate, though was reluctant to ignite until it was operated with the engine running (hence alternator providing good battery voltage) and once running properly it also cut out without being switched off.

Recommendation - Poor starting is common with this type of heater when battery voltage is low (ignition is by means of a glow plug), but once ignited it should keep running without problem. Carry out further testing to confirm that operation is not optimum, then obtain advice from and consider having unit serviced by a competent technician.

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I have seen many posts on the Eberspachers and similar issues. I know this is not uncommon but they of course they should work if serviced/maintained correctly.

 

[DavidTav]

Is this really what this forum is for? The boat you are considering is almost 20 years old. Surely you don't expect it to be as new?

 

[cpedw]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this really what this forum is for?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, IMHO. MacMan is asking for advice. You don't want to give it. I am happy to tell him that the survey seems to point out nothing beyoind "normal wear and tear" so he will be very lucky to get a further reduction. And I will add that I don't know anyone who currently is selling a 1989 Prout 33.

Derek

 

[dnickj]

So its a 20 yr old boat sounds like a few minor isues - what do expect - even my mum had false teeth - tend to agree with the seller - pays your money takes your choice

 

[gjgm]

hear hear... these are the points, what does the forum think?
Seems a reasonable question to me.

 

[bigwow]

Both minor points and IMHO not a basis for further price negotiation.

 

[Fascadale]

I would accept the costs of the rudders and the gas, both pretty minimal, and suggest a 50:50 split on a full service (and repaIR) of the Eber.

Then I suppose it is down to how much you want the boat

 

[Tranona]

Agree, these are very minor on such a boat and not a reason for significant reduction. Agree, however that the heater should be shown to work and a 50:50 on a service seems reasonable, but not a deal breaker.

 

[damo]

I agree with the others - sounds like an older boat in excellent condition, if they are the only things you need to take care of. I MAY have tried to negotiate over the eber servicing and gas hose, but if I really wanted the boat I wouldn't have let it become an obstacle.

I looked at several Prout 33's when I was originally looking to buy a boat, and believe me - if those 3 things are all you have to worry about then you don't have much to worry about! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[ShipsWoofy]

My rudders have blisters, and some repair work, carried out by me. The starboard rudder had begun to split, so I fixed it, it is now stronger than the port rudder, but not as pretty. I intend to sort this, by carrying out the same repair on the port. I will not be fixing the blisters. I must admit, underwater the blisters look unsightly, but the dolphins don't often complain.

I seem to think the rudders on the prout are of similar construction to mine, no internal pintles or metalwork, and alike the heavenly twins, prone to leaking. in the water this means the rudders are full of water, but as this is up to the waterline the weight is equalised. I can think of no good way to seal the holes where the bolts from the external pintles go through the rudders, so any work I do will be vain as the rudders will still fill up. I have some drain plugs ready to fit as soon as I come up with a suitable repair to keep them dry.

I am not worried about the strength of the rudders, this is a gel coat problem. If they were weakened I would have found out as they bounce off the end of the wall/pontoon as I pull away ( /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif ).

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Gas- oh the joy of the surveyor dictionary, should protects him, but is not as strong as must as there is no law to suggest you have to have a corgi man on board, the day you do need a corgi man, camping in the uk will be a thing of the past as will gas bbq. This is basically what we have on board. Renewing the hose is a prudent exercise and I can't disagree with this, though mine is approaching 5 know and it still looks new. I have some excess which was stored at home so will just use that, even though the date stamp is 2007. They do suggest the regulator should be changed periodically too, so for peace of mind maybe you should change both. If the gas pipe has a proper hose connector on it, there is no reason at all why you should not change it your self. Change the pipe on the cooker while you are at it, if it is flexible, it should have armoured pipe on it, even if the oven is fixed. This means you can pull the oven out to clean without disconnecting the gas etc.

Your insurance will now probably sting you for the word should. Mine did, I am supposed to find a corgi man to inspect, yet, it would be easier to put a tub of hens teeth as protection in the locker. Maybe you could negotiate with the surveyor to change his language in this section, trust me, the insurance bods are getting hot on this now.

I am starting to think, as the future of boat insurance is changing, all surveyors must become gas registered, otherwise we will all need to pay for 2 surveys.

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On the heater, where is it drawing it's air from, if the engine room it may be cutting due to the engine room warming up, are the ducts insulated? This could be any number of things, the fact the heater starts up though, means it is probably a dodgy sensor or an external problem.

 

[asj1]

As others have said these are minor issues - if the price is right and you want it then buy it. The costs for these things will pale into insignificance compared to the total cost of ownership !!
As regards the Gas stuff, as he says it SHOULD be done by a CORGI man , but in reality is very easy to do yourself and also install a "bubble tester" which will tell you if you have a downstream leak.
Insurers will expect you to confirm that you have had all the safety related work done - but they are unlikley to check up unless you have a gas explosion of course! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Jonny_H]

Sounds like a good survey. Rudders don't sound like much of an issue, gas is standard affair - wouldn't worry much.

Re the Eber - our Webasto was 'not functioning correctly' - not critical and can be put down to normal wear & tear by the seller, but a word of caution - it could be costly to fix depending on what is wrong, ours needed a new control box which was £300. That said in the grand scheme of yacht ownership its a drop in the ocean /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jonny

 

[PaulR]

great timing as I have just posted re my eber which sounds like the one you are looking at - ie would suddenly stop - be aware that mine has been inspected by eber agent and cost to replace motor and gaskets and service is a fraction over £500 - having said that agree that in the context of buying a secondhand boat the overall condition and price is what counts and not surprising that some issues detected but if they sale details were suggesting it was in full working order could be a valid point of discussion - good luck

 

[Fascadale]

Let us know what the outcome is.

As a matter of interest, and somewhat "off thread" , and only if you don't mind me asking etc, do you know how long "your" Prout was on the market, and what sort of percentage, if any, did you agree to pay under the asking price ?

I wonder what the market is generally doing, is it a buyers market at present etc

Nosey, I know,

Thanks

 

[Bajansailor]

I have a Tramex moisture meter, and every fibreglass rudder it has ever come into contact with has caused it to go beserk.
Including our rudder - when we acquired the boat, the rudder had a big split in the leading edge - it was a mini chasm. Sanded off all the paint, and wrapped a bandage of fibreglass cloth and epoxy around it, and it works fine, altho it is still very 'wet' inside. I am not worried about it.

Just one pedantic point, he talks about 'either rudder blade' and 'valves are fitted on either gas cylinder' - I think he should really say 'each' rather than 'either'.

 

[NFCN]

If the only issues you have with your potential purchase are those you have posted - you have little to worry about. A few spots on the rudder, replace a couple of gas hoses and - if you really want or need the luxury of a heater - a bit of money spent to service it.

I'd worry and think about negociation if you were talking about hull or hull / join integrity, engine or gearbox issues, other rudder problems, rigging or sail problems, or major electrical issues...

if the price is right, you seem to have a good deal. The only grounds for reduction would seem to me if the seller wants more than you think the market's worth...

 

[BIG_PLANS]

I would say this is exactly what the forum is for.

 

[BIG_PLANS]

A boat I surveyed recently was picked up for the same problem with flexible gas pipes. I stated that it should be carried out by a Corgi engineer, what else could you put in writing in a report?! The insurance company is happy to have the system checked by myself as a Boat Safety Examiner, so depending on where the boat is a BSS examiner could checked and report on the gas system.

Mike

 

[paulrae]

Looks like a pretty god survey to me. I'd try to negotiate some cost split on the items noted, but if the seller got hard-nosed I'd roll over and give him his dosh.

Hope that it goes ahead and you throughly enjoy your new toy.

 

[Koeketiene]

[ QUOTE ]
pays your money takes your choice

[/ QUOTE ]

What does that mean?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I wish people would stop saying that - load of unhelpful bollocks.

The only phrase more unhelpful I can think of is:

The hull probably remains adequately strong (survey report - on the issue of hull strength after osmosis treatment).

To me this read as: she might float, but don't hold me to it.