Summer's here! Boatrage in the Solent

[Twister_Ken]

Re: You might as well

Well, I hope the folks that nicked it from the marina car park had the good grace to pay the yard bills. Had they got the sails back from the loft as well? And how was my new genoa setting?

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[sailbadthesinner]

Re: You might as well

No
Yes
Badly

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>I can't walk on water, but I do run on Guinness</font color=red>

 

[Twister_Ken]

Which reminds me

Cowes Week, long long ago, I was crewing in a quarter tonner, standing in to the island shore on stbd. Coming out was a German boat on port who thought he'd done us. Despite our increasingly loud hails of "star-BOARD!" he stood steely-eyed on, until with only a boatlength or so to spare he realised he wasn't going to pass ahead, and he was too close to bear away under our stern safely. He crash tacked which put him parallel, about three feet to leeward and almost dead in the water. With brilliant timing a wave smacked between the two hulls, leapt up vertically, was caught by the wind and descended directly in his cockpit. The crew used some words which I'd never learned in German classes at school.

Oh how we laughed!

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[Twister_Ken]

Re: You might as well

Par for the course, then.

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[Violetta]

Aw, come on, Jimi

Overtaking boat? You just told us you would have had to gybe to go around their stern! And they were on the wind? How could they possibly have been "overtaking boat"? If that really was the case, I am sure you would have told us before - it would have given even more credibility to your righteous indignation.

I suspect you did what we've all done from time to time - misjudged the situation and cut it too fine. Personally, I am very irritated by skippers who insist on shaving past my bow when they could easily have made a small alteration and avoided the uncertainty on both sides. Why should I be compelled to trust their judgement? Nearly T-boned one in Harwich once (us running on starboard, him reaching on port) He could easily have hardened up a little and passed astern, but no - he had to carry on and then stopped dead in front of us when he was hit by the wash of a ship. We had another boat on our starboard quarter so we had to gybe very quickly to avoid him - dangerous to him and to us. The requirement not to pass close ahead of a "stand-on" boat is there for a good reason.

No, I didn't yell and scream - that NEVER helps and I don't condone that kind of behaviour at all. But I felt like it........


<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Violetta on 17/03/2003 12:47 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[jimi]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

Im' beam reaching on Starboard, he's been fine reaching also on starboard, he's on my port quarter abaft the beam, overtaking sector is from 22.5 aft of the beam, he was more like 45 degrees aft ie well in the overtaking sector. Do'nt forget that I had slowed down to let a couple of ships clear the main shipping lane and also was well reefed as the kiddies were playing hangman on my new whiteboard down stairs. Other bot was also starting to bear away 1) to avoid Brambles dead ahead 2) to enter Soton Water which is where I was headed as well.
I had originally mentally given him the benefit of the doubt as a crossing vessel, in which case he would have passed well behind. But his subsequent change of course had actually caused the distance to close but brought him well into the overtaking sector, think their mindset was still on crossing boat not overtaking?

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[robp]

Re: Winding them up

Several years ago, In Yarmouth. We needed some quick provisions. Quite high water, so we bought our 27 footer round into the still flooding tide, to tie up against the wall. Even as we were still coming alongside, a what seemed big at the time, Sigma came directly for us with the tide under him. "Hey you, make some room will yoh"? "Yes", I said sweetly, "I intend to walk her back when we have actually put someone ashore". Completely ignoring me, he kept coming and caused minor consternation amongst my 15 and 12 year old crew. They jumped ashore and tied us off, whilst Cap'n mouthy started ordering tourists to take his lines. "And when you've handed me those lines back, pass me that hose and turn the tap on when I say"...

I and my 15 year old son started into town. As we passed the Sigma, I spied out of the corner of my eye one son surreptitiously extract one hand from his pocket and turn off the tap. I just grinned and allowed him his own personal retribution. Must have been 15 or 20 minutes later when we returned and saw Cap'n mouthy's head appear out of the forehatch with a questioning look on his face!

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[bedouin]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

Whether or not the boat is overtaking depends on the angle at which the boats approach initially. Subsequent changes in course will not alter the case. So if the initial approach was clearly crossing then it remains a crossing situation even after the stand-on vessel had altered course.

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[jimi]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

Bollocks, go and read your collision regulations. Stand on vessel has duty to maintain course & speed. In this case he originally was marginal but then moved clearly into it about 8 or 9 boatlengths away.

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[bedouin]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

I see you're being nice and polite again.

If you read your colregs you will see that the stand on vessel may alter course if in their opinion the give way vessel is not taking sufficient action to avoid collision. Now clearly the fact that they had yelled at you and you had not responded clearly shows that they felt you had not take sufficient action, and so they are within their rights to alter course.

(Also if they altered course to avoid running aground on Brambles Bank they were within their rights.)


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[jimi]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you suggesting that the ones with the loudest lungs have right of way. And as far as you're other interpretation of the rules I fear you are confusing racing rules and collision regs. Are you really suggesting that if I'm about to hit a sandbank and have to alter course to overtake someone that otherwise I'd be well clear of ,that that someone ahead of me should gybe round to come round my stern. If so,not only are you several sandwiches short of a picnic, you're in the basket!

You were'nt out sailing with an escaped lunatic on Saturday were you?

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[bedouin]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

No - I was just correctly your incomplete knowledge of Colregs.




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[jimi]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

Yet again my friend, you appear to be incapable of grasping some simple facts. I had stated 1) that had they held their course they would have been well clear of me albeit on the Brambles 2) their alteration of course a) put them closer to me .. not a good course of collision avoiding action and b)put them clearly in my overtaking zone. Given these facts explain to me why I was in breach of the collision regs.

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[Martin_Billings]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

I suppose the only really satisfactory solution for anyone in this situation is to work out what Don Corleone would have done about it....


....and then just let it go. It's just not worth it.

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[bedouin]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

Okay - and this is my last posting on the subject. All I know is what you have told me in your postings:

1. You were windward boat, he was leeward on the same tack

2. You only "estimated" that you would pass ahead, so risk of collision existed

3. Originally you weren't sure that he was overtaking vessel.

as windward boat you were give way vessel and therefore required to make early and obvious action to avoid the other boat. One your own admission you did not do that.

The stand on vessel yelled at you asking you to take avoiding action, which you did not do. As soon as it became apparent that you were not going to they were entitled by rule 17 to take action to avoid collision, which would allow them to bear away (as they were hard on the wind they couldn't
head up, and anyway to do so would have been dangerous. Rule 17 makes it clear that the fact that the stand on vessel has altered course does not relieve you of the obligation to keep clear.

Eventually you passed within 5 yds of him, which is far too close.

I'm not trying to excuse any shouting or rudeness - I abhor both - but you admit that you gave as good as you got, and given your comments in this thread I can well believe it.

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[sailbadthesinner]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

I am not going to get into an argument with a newly badged YM. My knowledge of colregs is not as exhaustive as you appear to think yours is
But i do feel that you are not without some blame in this instance. Your intentions were obviously not clear.

And as for reverting to a solent slanging match it shows you to be a brute.

I am glad you and your type stick to the solent

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>I can't walk on water, but I do run on Guinness</font color=red>

 

[Guest]

Confused ! Are you sure about this ???

You were on beam reach, wind on port side. Abuser is on port quarter faster than you.

OK little bit of maths here ...... average boat sails 'off wind ... and also most boats will not be dead down wind staright - too uncomfortable and liable to gybes etc.

So we have you beam reach and the other port quarter probably near or more than 22.5 degrees abaft your beam ... meaning that he is actually an overtaking vessel - sail / racing / port side or not !!

Now come on someone - prove me worng !! 'Cause I'm confused !!

Reading all the threads as well I am surprsied that someone else hasn't 'plotted' it as well.

The only way this scenario can be that you are give way vessel is if you are actually pointing, not reaching.

The 'Lady' in question should be Tarred and feathered for unlady-like behaviour ... irrespective of right or worng - its time like that you wish you had the water-bomb machine !!!!



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[jimi]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

I'm not going to alter course for every plonker sitting on a windward rail shouting at me, for all I know they could be the local village idiot. I'm going to assess the situation and act in accordance with the information available to me.

2 I did pass ahead .. well ahead .. had he stood on

"Eventually you passed within 5 yds of him, which is far too close" did'nt .. he passed within 5 yards of me, quite a bit different really. I clearly stated he bore away ... back to school ,boy!



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[jimi]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

Well really Sailbad, was it you out with Lu on Saturday.Is she short and darkhaired with a posh accent? I'm sure it was you on the wheel? Presumably you're not allowed to say too much apart from the odd "I do" and heres my payslip? Ditch the bitch and sail off with Stingo!

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[sailbadthesinner]

Re: Aw, come on, Jimi

lou does not scream
she would give you one of her looks and you would happily turn into Brambles.
stingo could not afford to have me as crew. i'd empty his fridge before he'd cleared the lizard.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>I can't walk on water, but I do run on Guinness</font color=red>