Suggestions for EU flag of convenience

[fliti]

I share my boat with an Italian business partner. His Italian skipper's licence is only valid on EU flag boats. Our boat is currently UK SSR registered so after Brexit, he will not be authorised to sail the boat. We have therefore decided to re-flag to another EU country. We had looked initially at Dutch flag but after the issues helpfully pointed out earlier by Roberto et al, that seems a dead end. Has anyone any other suggestions, preferably based on personal experience, of cheap, low hassle re-flagging possibilities within the EU?

 

[tenerani]

Up untill December 31st you can flag Belgian, it will last for 5 yrs. Since Jan 1, 2019 this will no longer be possible for non Belgian residents

 

[Tranona]

Why does he need a licence to sail a UK flagged boat? If it is a privately owned boat there is no legal requirement to have a licence to be in command of a UK registered boat. - even in Italy.The only "authorisation" he needs is your permission as the owner.

 

[Gwylan]

Don't underestimate Malta. Creative holding methods too!

 

[Roberto]

Why does he need a licence to sail a UK flagged boat? If it is a privately owned boat there is no legal requirement to have a licence to be in command of a UK registered boat. - even in Italy.The only "authorisation" he needs is your permission as the owner.

Well, "it depends"
If the co-owner is an Italian national resident in Italy, he needs an Italian pleasure sail license, "patente nautica", whatever the flag of the EU boat he is sailing in Italian waters (except of course if the boat is <10m or has a small power engine); he cannot skipper a non-EU boat
There are probably issues that could be brought to some supra national court, but so far this is the situation.

 

[Tranona]

Well, "it depends"
If the co-owner is an Italian national resident in Italy, he needs an Italian pleasure sail license, "patente nautica", whatever the flag of the EU boat he is sailing in Italian waters (except of course if the boat is <10m or has a small power engine); he cannot skipper a non-EU boat
There are probably issues that could be brought to some supra national court, but so far this is the situation.

Just to add to the nonsense, he cannot be a co-owner of an SSR registered boat unless he is resident in the UK. Neither strictly speaking can the OP if he is resident in Italy.

So, probably they should both be on the EU naughty step!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Just to add to the nonsense, he cannot be a co-owner of an SSR registered boat unless he is resident in the UK. Neither strictly speaking can the OP if he is resident in Italy.

So, probably they should both be on the EU naughty step!

Tranona , ( and everyone else ) just to side step a little , as no one know as yet what the score going to be after March .
Putting the owner Nationality to one side , a British flag boat under SSR that's VAT paid , as I understand it can stay in the EU for ever . In other words , a Germany living in the UK who has a SSR boat under the red ensign can keep his boat anywhere in the EU .
Or have I missed some thing ?

 

[25931]

I share my boat with an Italian business partner. His Italian skipper's licence is only valid on EU flag boats. Our boat is currently UK SSR registered so after Brexit, he will not be authorised to sail the boat. We have therefore decided to re-flag to another EU country. We had looked initially at Dutch flag but after the issues helpfully pointed out earlier by Roberto et al, that seems a dead end. Has anyone any other suggestions, preferably based on personal experience, of cheap, low hassle re-flagging possibilities within the EU?

Cheap, low hassle within the EU -you are an optimist.

 

[RAI]

I suppose registering the boat in Italy is out of the question?

 

[Tranona]

Tranona , ( and everyone else ) just to side step a little , as no one know as yet what the score going to be after March .
Putting the owner Nationality to one side , a British flag boat under SSR that's VAT paid , as I understand it can stay in the EU for ever . In other words , a Germany living in the UK who has a SSR boat under the red ensign can keep his boat anywhere in the EU .
Or have I missed some thing ?

The flag of registration is largely irrelevant, as is the nationality of the owner. It is VAT payment (or exemption) that determines (currently) whether a boat is free to move around the EU. The only time flag and owner nationality come into play is a third country owned non VAT paid boat that wishes to enter the EU on a short term basis, and then it must be registered outside the EU to qualify for temporary importation.

As ever, what will happen after March 29 next year, or after the transition period (if it happens) is currently unknown.

 

[Sybarite]

The flag of registration is largely irrelevant, as is the nationality of the owner. It is VAT payment (or exemption) that determines (currently) whether a boat is free to move around the EU. The only time flag and owner nationality come into play is a third country owned non VAT paid boat that wishes to enter the EU on a short term basis, and then it must be registered outside the EU to qualify for temporary importation.

As ever, what will happen after March 29 next year, or after the transition period (if it happens) is currently unknown.

I would think that a yacht's flag will not be the primary concern of those negotiating Brexit. Maybe in 5 - 10 years time?

 

[Tranona]

I would think that a yacht's flag will not be the primary concern of those negotiating Brexit. Maybe in 5 - 10 years time?

I agree. State of registration is nothing to do with the EU but international law. AFAIK the only time EU use it as a differentiator is in the way I explained earlier - that is in relation to temporary importation.

Of course that does not mean it won't become relevant when the "negotiators" try to draw up a set of rules on how to treat boats where VAT was paid in the UK!

 

[macd]

Of course that does not mean it won't become relevant when the "negotiators" try to draw up a set of rules on how to treat boats where VAT was paid in the UK!

Whilst it's often suggested that the "nationality"/VAT status of recreational boats is an issue of little consequence, many of the applicable regulations fall under the general umbrella of "means of transport", which is not such a small issue. Clearly there are differences (cars must eventually be registered in their new country, whilst boats usually need not be), but maybe the eventual rulings will not be so distant as is sometimes supposed.

 

[sailaboutvic]

This has been and will continue to be a long running saga , but I can't see how once VAT been paid in what ever country that would had ended up in the EU pocket would be an issues after we leave ( if we leave) surely you only pay VAT to the EU once unless the boat leaves Europe for more then three years and then there ways around that ,

We talking British boats and British owners .
I agree the flag is irrelevant but the nationality of the owner is very irrelevant ,
if it meant a Brit can only stay in the EU for 90 days in 180 days .

If joe keep his boat in Spain/ Greece and spend 6 summer month say .

 

[lindseygill]

This has been and will continue to be a long running saga , but I can't see how once VAT been paid in what ever country that would had ended up in the EU pocket would be an issues after we leave ( if we leave) surely you only pay VAT to the EU once unless the boat leaves Europe for more then three years and then there ways around that ,

A minor point but VAT paid in the UK is paid over to HM Revenue and Customs and not the EU.

Monies paid to the EU come from central government and are part of the overall budget set by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Clearly the sources of the income side of that budget may include VAT along with PAYE, Inheritance Tax, Corporation Tax and the many other ways we are taxed as individuals or companies.

 

[Graham376]

surely you only pay VAT to the EU once unless the boat leaves Europe for more then three years and then there ways around that ,

As long as the boat remains in current ownership its status should remain but if/when it changes ownership a chargeable event will have occurred either in the EU or UK.

 

[sailaboutvic]

As long as the boat remains in current ownership its status should remain but if/when it changes ownership a chargeable event will have occurred either in the EU or UK.

Are you talking about a boat that leaves the EU and is sold while out of the EU?
Other wise I think your wrong , a means of transport i.e. A car brought new which VAT is paid if sold it doesn't become a non vat car and vat is payable gain .

 

[macd]

As long as the boat remains in current ownership its status should remain but if/when it changes ownership a chargeable event will have occurred either in the EU or UK.

It's only a chargeable event if the sale constitutes an export/import. Otherwise, changes of ownership between private individuals are not chargeable.

 

[Graham376]

The chargeable event will take place if the boat moves location (VAT area) after sale.

If I buy Vic's boat from him in EU now, it's VAT paid in EU including UK but, if I buy it from him in Turkey, VAT is due if I bring it into the EU.

After Brexit, (unless an agreement is is place) if I buy his boat from him in UK (which presumably will then be outside EU VAT area) then EU VAT will be due if I take it to EU and likewise, UK VAT will be due if I buy it in EU and bring it to UK.

If someone is planning to buy a boat and take it permanently to the Med after Brexit, they may be advised to think carefully about where the sale appeared to have taken place.

 

[macd]

The chargeable event will take place if the boat moves location (VAT area) after sale.

The usual form of words is exported/imported.

I suspect you might struggle to buy Vic's boat in the UK (or anywhere else)

I think we can agree, however, that neither flag state nor nationality of owner have very much bearing on VAT, although assumptions to the contrary are often made. The OP's issue is an unusual one, of course, and equally irrelevant in terms of VAT (although local taxes may be applicable).