storm sail fitting

[adamstjohn]

Hi all

We used to use hank on sails for our masthead 30" boat. Typically a 150%, 120%, working jib and storm sail. being an old half ton design, it sailed beautifully with the correct sail up. i s,pose i got a bit lazy over the years.

We still have the working jib and the stormsail in storage but now have furling genoa which is obviously great for loads of reasons but poor sail shape when heavily reefed for beating into weather.

Now....... and you will have to bare with me on this, we have no slot on mast for a stay to fit into, no eye on deck or highfield lever to put on a babystay and feel that it would just get in the way if fitted or strapped to the mast as all our lines are at the mast.

Its only 30 ft so doesnt have a huge foredeck so dont want a permanent one titted.

If we get caught out in wind need to get back i wondered if there was anyway of ,fitting' a forestay into the sail???? (no idea what i can use for this. Would a stong length of dynema the length of the luff? could i use a dynema non stretch line as a forestay)

for the storm sail?? tensioning the foot to the deck samson post with a large soft shackle and raising the sail with the spinnaker halliard and ultimately tentsoning it with a mast winch and making off at the mast. The storm jib has a wire luff in it.

This is all just an idea but surely there must be a way.

Any ideas?

Ta adam

 

[jwilson]

In practice hoisting a storm jib in a gale without any stay to attach it to will produce horrendous snatch loads, but as long as the luff is constrained by a reasonably tensioned stay, be it wire or dyneema, the snatching will be greatly reduced.

 

[flaming]

Hi all

We used to use hank on sails for our masthead 30" boat. Typically a 150%, 120%, working jib and storm sail. being an old half ton design, it sailed beautifully with the correct sail up. i s,pose i got a bit lazy over the years.

We still have the working jib and the stormsail in storage but now have furling genoa which is obviously great for loads of reasons but poor sail shape when heavily reefed for beating into weather.

Now....... and you will have to bare with me on this, we have no slot on mast for a stay to fit into, no eye on deck or highfield lever to put on a babystay and feel that it would just get in the way if fitted or strapped to the mast as all our lines are at the mast.

Its only 30 ft so doesnt have a huge foredeck so dont want a permanent one titted.

If we get caught out in wind need to get back i wondered if there was anyway of ,fitting' a forestay into the sail???? (no idea what i can use for this. Would a stong length of dynema the length of the luff? could i use a dynema non stretch line as a forestay)

for the storm sail?? tensioning the foot to the deck samson post with a large soft shackle and raising the sail with the spinnaker halliard and ultimately tentsoning it with a mast winch and making off at the mast. The storm jib has a wire luff in it.

This is all just an idea but surely there must be a way.

Any ideas?

Ta adam

It's not the cheapest option, but putting the storm sail on a furler like race boats use for staysails can work well. Allows the sail to be hoisted without flogging and tensioned using the halyard, then only unfurled when you're ready.

 

[neil_s]

I found a hank-on working jib on board a new-to-me boat. I took off the hanks and fitted mainsail bullet slides and a short strop on the head. It worked very well with the Rotostay and was easy to use for a single hander. When it wore out, I had a new sail made with a foil luff, but I missed the ease with which the converted hank-on could be set and stowed. It could of coarse also be furled! Maybe this would also work for your storm jib.

 

[Supertramp]

I think you need a stay with decent tension in it (and low stretch). A wire stay with a block and tackle at the foot would do it, stowed away by the mast or side stays when not needed. Dyneema seems possible but it will sit there in UV all the time. This assumes your samson post or deck cleat will take the considerable vertical load as opposed to horizontal.

I use a Solent stay with hank on sails and the pointing ability is much better than with a rolled sail plus you stop worrying about the gusts. Handling it in 30 knts is exciting but in a way less worrying than winding in too much genoa in similar winds. It involves some flogging when singlehanded for me.

Keeping the stay removeable is good as tacking involves rolling the genoa when it's up for me.

Worth finding a way. It's very reassuring to feel comfortable with your sails when the wind comes in 10knts above forecast.

 

[adamstjohn]

It's not the cheapest option, but putting the storm sail on a furler like race boats use for staysails can work well. Allows the sail to be hoisted without flogging and tensioned using the halyard, then only unfurled when you're ready.

i did consider a twin groove foil and think thats a great idea tbh. am not worried about fuling the small sails (they dont worry me, the 150 did when it was windy did) just want the ability to sail more efficiently to windward.

 

[adamstjohn]

I found a hank-on working jib on board a new-to-me boat. I took off the hanks and fitted mainsail bullet slides and a short strop on the head. It worked very well with the Rotostay and was easy to use for a single hander. When it wore out, I had a new sail made with a foil luff, but I missed the ease with which the converted hank-on could be set and stowed. It could of coarse also be furled! Maybe this would also work for your storm jib.

Hmm, not sure i know what this is. whatever i do, i need it to be super simple and have just had a ahhhhhhhhhh moment re my last post!!!! i cant expose the twin foil with the big genny furled.!!! schoolboy error!! so cant use that. i cant visualise your system, sorry

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Depending on the design of the boat, I'd be cautious about setting a sail on a baby stay. Their usual purpose is to prevent mast inversion, and they might not take the stresses imposed by a sail, and could over stress the mast. It might be ok - but it might not as well.

 

[adamstjohn]

I think you need a stay with decent tension in it (and low stretch). A wire stay with a block and tackle at the foot would do it, stowed away by the mast or side stays when not needed. Dyneema seems possible but it will sit there in UV all the time. This assumes your samson post or deck cleat will take the considerable vertical load as opposed to horizontal.

I use a Solent stay with hank on sails and the pointing ability is much better than with a rolled sail plus you stop worrying about the gusts. Handling it in 30 knts is exciting but in a way less worrying than winding in too much genoa in similar winds. It involves some flogging when singlehanded for me.

Keeping the stay removeable is good as tacking involves rolling the genoa when it's up for me.

Worth finding a way. It's very reassuring to feel comfortable with your sails when the wind comes in 10knts above forecast.

Thanks, yes totally agree. Thats the kind of idea, i did do a little googling yesterday and saw the solent stay idea.
Being an older boat that was massively over spec'd, - it is an half ton design that david thomas designed a bigger coachroof for- with really great quality stuff in its day. the stem head fitting is huge and this could possibly work as sure there is room for an eye to be placed on. Cutting a slot and fitting the fitting for the shroud is fine, am sure we even have one of the old lowers that we could utilise for this. I am guessing a decent block and pully (mainsheet type thing) would tension the shroud ok..

Hmmmm food for thought.

I used to love the way that we sailed to windward with great sailshape. I miss it.

 

[adamstjohn]

Depending on the design of the boat, I'd be cautious about setting a sail on a baby stay. Their usual purpose is to prevent mast inversion, and they might not take the stresses imposed by a sail, and could over stress the mast. It might be ok - but it might not as well.

I hadnt even considered that as thought they were specifically designed for smaller sails no?

 

[srm]

I had a cutter rig on 35ft plus short bowsprit. Had a high clew headsail made having specified good windward shape when deeply rolled. The high clew meant the sheet lead did not need moving fore and aft with changes in area and the sail with foam strips in the luff kept a good shape when rolled. The worse conditions we sailed in was three days with 3 reefs in main and only three or four metres of headsail, but this was on a reach.

If wanting a storm jib you need a removable stay to control the sail when hoisting and lowering. Ours ran from the masthead and stowed out of the way down to the forward lower shroud. It was tensioned with a bottle screw with a length of tube on the foredeck fitting to take the torque. If you use a removable tackle for tensioning your stay can be cut to a length that stows on the shroud chainplate with the tackle providing the extra length when rigged. Have a careful look at your masthead, it may be able to take a second stay.

 

[adamstjohn]

I hadnt even considered that as thought they were specifically designed for smaller sails no?

Just googled it. Thanks for the insight . genuinely thought this is where storm sails were set from. Gawd its a minefield isnt it..

Guess i would have to think closer to the top of the mast then, dont think it will be a problem up there.

This is great imput, many thanks everyone.

 

[adamstjohn]

I had a cutter rig on 35ft plus short bowsprit. Had a high clew headsail made having specified good windward shape when deeply rolled. The high clew meant the sheet lead did not need moving fore and aft with changes in area and the sail with foam strips in the luff kept a good shape when rolled. The worse conditions we sailed in was three days with 3 reefs in main and only three or four metres of headsail, but this was on a reach.

If wanting a storm jib you need a removable stay to control the sail when hoisting and lowering. Ours ran from the masthead and stowed out of the way down to the forward lower shroud. It was tensioned with a bottle screw with a length of tube on the foredeck fitting to take the torque. If you use a removable tackle for tensioning your stay can be cut to a length that stows on the shroud chainplate with the tackle providing the extra length when rigged. Have a careful look at your masthead, it may be able to take a second stay.

Thanks SRM, thats very useful and a good idea. The mast is decent , oldy but a goody, but will have to check how the spin. and gennoa sheaves run the haliards down, cabbling etc.

Think thats the way to go.

Mast will come down (intentionally!!!) this year for inspection anyway so a good project.

many thanks

 

[srm]

You will also need to consider a suitable deck fitting to take the stay loads, positioned so storm sail and hanks can not touch/damage the rolled headsail. Having the storm jib stay set inboard should improve sail balance by moving the sail's centre of effort aft matching a deep reef in the main that moves its centre of effort forward.

 

[adamstjohn]

You will also need to consider a suitable deck fitting to take the stay loads, positioned so storm sail and hanks can not touch/damage the rolled headsail. Having the storm jib stay set inboard should improve sail balance by moving the sail's centre of effort aft matching a deep reef in the main that moves its centre of effort forward.

yes, that makes sense. ta

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I hadnt even considered that as thought they were specifically designed for smaller sails no?

No; they're intended to ensure that the top of the mast doesn't bend forwards; I.e in the wrong direction. As such, they don't take vast stresses. Of course, some boats may have them stressed to take sideways forces, but on most boats the deck fitting isn't tied into the load bearing structure of the boat. On mine (a Moody 31) it's simply bolted through the cabin roof; I think the moulding is strengthened there, but there's no connection to a bulkhead or other load bearing structure. I certainly wouldn't rely on a baby stay to set a storm jib!

 

[srm]

I hadnt even considered that as thought they were specifically designed for smaller sails no?

If they were there would be a halyard to go with it, and as @AntarcticPilot said, structural support for the chainplate. I fitted one on a previous boat to stop the wood mast panting at the upper spreaders. The deck fitting was connected to the keel to take the load.
I suspect babystays came in as a cost saving device as one wire replaced the forward pair of lower shrouds common on older boats.

 

[Wansworth]

I have a friend with 27 footer who has crossed the Atlantic in rough weather and his advice was just stay with the curing jib as you won’t be trying to get the maximum to windward and the furling jib rolled although not the best will probably be better than a bodge up of an extra stay and storm jib.once off the wind the furling jib is ok.

 

[Supertramp]

I have a friend with 27 footer who has crossed the Atlantic in rough weather and his advice was just stay with the curing jib as you won’t be trying to get the maximum to windward and the furling jib rolled although not the best will probably be better than a bodge up of an extra stay and storm jib.once off the wind the furling jib is ok.

Yes, but.....you can then use your Solent stay to set a second headsaill downwind which is a very comfortable way to sail in fresher downwind conditions.

 

[Wansworth]

Yes, but.....you can then use your Solent stay to set a second headsaill downwind which is a very comfortable way to sail in fresher downwind conditions.View attachment 181188

Yes I would agree but I was just addressing the single furling headsail