Sizing a staysail / heavy upwind jib

[Tranona]

If you race, you’re going to trim the sail, and reef it much later. Cruisers just don’t tend to set their overlappers well, and whatever the cut, and foam luff or not, they just don’t have the shape when heavily reefed. A 100% blade jib on the same furler can still be flat when half rolled. So you’re both right, IMHO. Racers just want the max area, but cruisers are often better off compromising.

Exactly the point I was making. Many older boats had large overlapping sails because of the influence of IOR where the extra sail area was "free" and could be used to advantage. However it does not necessarily make a good cruising rg when, unlike hot shoe racers you don't have a range of headsails to work through as the wind increases. So you are stuck with one big sail that when reefed down is poor and when fully out is only of value in very light airs and well trimmed. some cruising boats from that era, like mine were designed with a "working" as the primary sail and a genoa for light airs, mainly offwind. The advent of furlers led many to have an overlapping genoa as the primary sail in the belief it would improve performance. In reality you quickly discover that it does not make much difference , particularly going to wind where it has a tendency to increase weather helm and is a PITA when tacking. Now with the developments in easily handled light airs off wind sails there is a lot to be said for reducing overlap from 135% to 115% for a "working" sail.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Our jib is about 110% anyway. If I were sizing another jib for heavy airs, I’d want about 60% of that. That would be just right at 25kn. Given the summer we are having, it’s almost a serious thought.

 

[geem]

We have a vectran 130% genoa on the main forestay. We also have a heavy dacron triple stitched jib on a second furler set back 2 feet from the main forestay. The smaller jib stay fits to the mast 2 metres down from the main forestay. We have dyneema runners to stabilise the rig when using the jib.
Going to weather, the genoa is never reefed. We simply roll it away once we hit 20kts apparent. We then unfurl the jib. The genoa is 700sqft. The jib is 290sqft. By comparison, the storn jib is 150sqft. When the jib is sheeted hard in for beating to weather, the clew is almost at the cap shrouds, but the sail is high cut such that the sheeting angle places the sheet on the car of the genoa track, almost at the front of the track.
One thing to consider. We have a 12mm diameter forestay and a 10mm diameter inner stay for the jib. Setting up the rig to have two permanent forestay needs some thought. When using the genoa, you want a tight forestay. You need a lot of backstay tension to achieve this. Far more than people realise.
You also need a good amount of pre-bend in the mast. This will leave the inner stay slightly floppy. If you load up the inner stay too much, you will never get decent sail shape on the genoa for going to weather in light conditions as it will be too floppy by sharing some tension with the inner stay.
When you are going to weather on the jib, the runners need a fair amount of pressure to flatten the sail otherwise you sacrifice performance.
We spent a lot of time with a rigger friend of mine setting up our rig recently. It paid dividends on some long passages. I really don't think the boat has performed as well under my ownership as it has recently with the rig changes we made to enhance the boat's performance. It was well worth it.

 

[B27]

If you race, you’re going to trim the sail, and reef it much later. Cruisers just don’t tend to set their overlappers well, and whatever the cut, and foam luff or not, they just don’t have the shape when heavily reefed. A 100% blade jib on the same furler can still be flat when half rolled. So you’re both right, IMHO. Racers just want the max area, but cruisers are often better off compromising.

Cruising boats normally have rigs designed for full sail in a sensible windspeed.
Depending on the size and flavour of the boat, that may be around 14 to 18 knots (true) typically?
If you reduce the sail below what it was designed with, you lose out every time the wind drops below what your reduce rig is optimised for.

Even racers, who are less likely to stay in port when it's windy, spend the majority of the time racing in below 13 knots of true wind.
There tend to be a lot of hours of below ten knots.

You want sails that will drive the boat in the majority of the conditions or you will end up motoring a lot.
Of course some people are very happy motoring a lot, that's fine by me

 

[bergie]

When we renewed our headsails two years ago we went with the combo of a 150% genoa on the roller, and a hank-on 75% blade staysail.

Sure, roller furling would be convenient also with the staysail, but we do remove the inner forestay occasionally when sailing upwind in lighter conditions (so we don't need to furl the genoa to tack).

We've ended up using the staysail quite a bit, especially for upwind work in higher winds or when we need to short-tack in a narrow channel (the smaller sail comes across a lot more quickly). The sail has also one reef which we've never used. It's been fine to about 38kt so far.

We switched our whisker pole to a telescopic model so it suits for poling out either of the headsails. Poled out staysail and main on 2nd reef is a sweet setup for winds over 30kt from astern.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Cruising boats normally have rigs designed for full sail in a sensible windspeed.
Depending on the size and flavour of the boat, that may be around 14 to 18 knots (true) typically?
If you reduce the sail below what it was designed with, you lose out every time the wind drops below what your reduce rig is optimised for.

Even racers, who are less likely to stay in port when it's windy, spend the majority of the time racing in below 13 knots of true wind.
There tend to be a lot of hours of below ten knots.

You want sails that will drive the boat in the majority of the conditions or you will end up motoring a lot.
Of course some people are very happy motoring a lot, that's fine by me

All perfectly true. However, I don’t see much of a problem in having a reduced area jib for winter, with typically higher wind speeds and increased air density.
How much I believe your post is probably best demonstrated by the spending of hard earned cash on a code 0 to ‘reoptimise’ our rig for 10 knots and less of wind. It’s over twice the area of our 115% roller jib. No need to motor in anything over 3 knots for us now. I’d willingly buy a smaller jib to optimise again for 25kn, but the jib is a right bugger to get up and down, so I’d be making a rod for my own back.

 

[geem]

When we renewed our headsails two years ago we went with the combo of a 150% genoa on the roller, and a hank-on 75% blade staysail.
View attachment 181664
Sure, roller furling would be convenient also with the staysail, but we do remove the inner forestay occasionally when sailing upwind in lighter conditions (so we don't need to furl the genoa to tack).

We've ended up using the staysail quite a bit, especially for upwind work in higher winds or when we need to short-tack in a narrow channel (the smaller sail comes across a lot more quickly). The sail has also one reef which we've never used. It's been fine to about 38kt so far.

We switched our whisker pole to a telescopic model so it suits for poling out either of the headsails. Poled out staysail and main on 2nd reef is a sweet setup for winds over 30kt from astern.

We have twin poles so we can set a genoa and staysail for downwind work. Another set up that works well with twin headsails in running wing on wing with the genoa poled out to windward so you are sailing at about 154/165°. We then set the staysail tight on the leeward side. This set up works very well. We get less roll than just wing on wing when the seas become more boisterous. We also get more boat speed than just wing on wing. Everything super easy to reef with the furlers on the headsail

 

[Supertramp]

Some good points in this thread.

You don't need special winter sails but for anyone wanting to sail effectively in stronger winds you need the right sails, and have them ready and easy to deploy (Frank Holden #18). A half rolled genoa will get you home but set well cut smaller sails and the experience is more pleasant and controlled.

When cruising I often leave my hank on jib on deck (in a cover) rather than folded in its bag. And it gets used more that way.




Close reaching in 20knts. Hopefully the OP is encouraged to have a go!

 

[geem]

Some good points in this thread.

You don't need special winter sails but for anyone wanting to sail effectively in stronger winds you need the right sails, and have them ready and easy to deploy (Frank Holden #18). A half rolled genoa will get you home but set well cut smaller sails and the experience is more pleasant and controlled.

When cruising I often leave my hank on jib on deck (in a cover) rather than folded in its bag. And it gets used more that way.

Making full use of my staysail going to weather

 

[bergie]

You don't need special winter sails but for anyone wanting to sail effectively in stronger winds you need the right sails, and have them ready and easy to deploy

Totally agreed. We also have our staysail hanked and ready whenever heading offshore or if heavier winds are in forecast.

As to winter sails, we usually prefer the hanks in winter conditions. We've had the roller furler freeze a few times. And smaller sail area presents a smaller target when in a snowball fight with other boats

We often use our old sails in winter, just because then we're never far from home port so it's not a big deal if they blow out.

Here's the genoa

And the staysail (and winter sailing, though in mild conditions, as evidenced by the Christmas hats)

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Geem’s jib sets nicely. An inch or 2 on the halyard though, I think.

 

[geem]

Geem’s jib sets nicely. An inch or 2 on the halyard though, I think.

You are correct. A few years ago now. We have the rig set up far better these days

 

[Minerva]

Thank you all, been most informative.

Been at the boat this weekend and measured up distance from mast to inner forestay and again from inner forestay to front of jib track, length of inner forestay and finally length of luff of current Genoa at second reef.

Is there an app / website / programme available where I can upload these dimensions plus the dimensions of prospective sails for sale to see if they would have decent sheeting angles?

Alternatively I’ll have to look out some graph paper and sharpen some pencils!

Thanks.

 

[Martin_J]

If I remember correctly, when we applied for an IRC rating a few years ago, the application was completed by filling all the measurements into a spreadsheet and as a check, the second tab used to show a diagram of the sailplan as per the measurements you had input.

This gave a nice double check that your numbers were reasonable, but RORC Rating in the UK now seem to have an online form only..

I'm on the mobile phone at the moment so can't fully check, but it looks like some countries still have a spreadsheet for rating applications.

Download the excel spreadsheet from Irish Sailing, put your measurements into the first tab and then look at the second tab called 'Sail Plan'.

https://www.sailing.ie/Portals/0/documents/2022/Racing/IRC 2022 New Form.xlsx

 

[Martin_J]

Oh and the third tab, the 'Validation' tab, gives more detail on any dimensions that don't look quite right..

 

[Supertramp]

Get a scale drawing of your boat including sails if possible, and use it to establish possible sail shapes that suit your foretriangle (with extra stay). Important to understand the range of sheeting angles and you can adjust the height of the wire strop at the foot of the sail. Not certain that it needs to be especially heavyweight - mine is similar to my other sails.

Diagrams from my boat to illustrate.

 

[Frank Holden]

Some good points in this thread.

You don't need special winter sails but for anyone wanting to sail effectively in stronger winds you need the right sails, and have them ready and easy to deploy (Frank Holden #18). A half rolled genoa will get you home but set well cut smaller sails and the experience is more pleasant and controlled.

When cruising I often leave my hank on jib on deck (in a cover) rather than folded in its bag. And it gets used more that way.


View attachment 181689

Close reaching in 20knts. Hopefully the OP is encouraged to have a go!

Northbound along the coast of Argentina in May 2009, 15 years ago.
150 sq ft 'storm jib' along with full jib. Smaller storm jib hanked on to inner forestay below the working one and secured with marlin hitches.
To reduce sail just drop and secure the 150, then unhank -one at a time - the smaller one and re-hank it above the 150. Hoist sail . Easier done than said - while sitting on the deck.


That daggy looking line leading aft and up from the port bow is the 'lifeline' we always rig on the foredeck, normally has more tension on it than shown.