Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[coenvanwyk]

Dear Brent,

Much as you and I find it baffling and even infuriating, there are some who prefer the herd mentality, who find it reassuring to do as others have done and find it a challenge to conform even more than the rest of the herd.

Your ideas are not mine, although I also built a steel boat and have dreams of cruising off into the sunset (which my daughter told me she wouldn't allow). Much of your design ideaas are sensible to me, but most of the tupperware boats around me would shudder to see something made and not produced half way around the world and sold for a fortune.
The other day someone showed me an ad for a block, at $ 2000!
But if that makes them happy, then so be it. If someone prefers an integrated navigation system costing more than my boat cost, and it all goes down because of one bad connection corroding away, then I guess that's just too bad. Some laugh at my fenders: canvas covered aeroplane tyres, free for the trouble of hauling them away, instead of expensive and not so robust inflatable plastic ones. Well, they are welcome to theirs.
My idea of performance will be to get the most fun out of exploring, of testing my own ability to sailing, to navigate, to get pleasure out of my boat, not in trying to get the most speed out of some arbitrary rule, spend the most money, try to impress the Joneses.
To each his own.

 

[Brent Swain]

Dear Brent,

Much as you and I find it baffling and even infuriating, there are some who prefer the herd mentality, who find it reassuring to do as others have done and find it a challenge to conform even more than the rest of the herd.

Your ideas are not mine, although I also built a steel boat and have dreams of cruising off into the sunset (which my daughter told me she wouldn't allow). Much of your design ideaas are sensible to me, but most of the tupperware boats around me would shudder to see something made and not produced half way around the world and sold for a fortune.
The other day someone showed me an ad for a block, at $ 2000!
But if that makes them happy, then so be it. If someone prefers an integrated navigation system costing more than my boat cost, and it all goes down because of one bad connection corroding away, then I guess that's just too bad. Some laugh at my fenders: canvas covered aeroplane tyres, free for the trouble of hauling them away, instead of expensive and not so robust inflatable plastic ones. Well, they are welcome to theirs.
My idea of performance will be to get the most fun out of exploring, of testing my own ability to sailing, to navigate, to get pleasure out of my boat, not in trying to get the most speed out of some arbitrary rule, spend the most money, try to impress the Joneses.
To each his own.

Good post.Good points. I guess they will be sarcastically laughing at us, all the way to the bank to make their payments , then all the way to work in smoggy traffic jams , to pay for it all, with their "I'd rather be sailing" bumper stickers on, while we go cruising.
I guess we should be thankful that their insistence on doing it Yottie means we will have our anchorages to ourselves more often.
Al human progress was made by those who questioned the "Normal' ways of doing things and and tried to find a better way, going against the flow. Without them we would still be in the stone age.

No doubt the guy who invented the wheel was subject to sarcastic ridicule by the ludites and sheeple of his time.
What do the lemmings call the one running away form the cliff? Crazy ,laughable , a complete idiot!

 

[solent clown]

unless you start smelting your own iron you are just as much part of what you phrase "the herd" otherwise known as wider society and economy. Doing things your own way is fine, but do not be so dismissive of those that go to work full time in proper jobs, without that "herd" there would be civilisation, no means of production, no steel, no welding rods, no scrapyards full of bits for you to scavenge. Decrying that civilisation and being an active part of it is fine, opt out then, but to the best of my knowledge, steel does not grow on trees. You seem to exist on the margins of society in your own way, people might applaud that you know, if you stop slating everyone else.

 

[DownWest]

SC
That reminded me of the Mother Earth News, which I used to read in the 80s. Full of backwoods types that had escaped the evils of society and prided themselves on self relience, while running down big business and people involved in it, but were quite happy to use pickups and chainsaws, made cheaply by same BB and, as you say, use any salvaged kit if it suits them.

 

[dom]

What do the lemmings call the one running away form the cliff? Crazy ,laughable , a complete idiot!

Good to go against the flow sometimes, but careful of that argument sinking analogy!

It comes from the 1958 Academy Award winning winning blockbuster Disney film White Wonderland, which invented the myth of mass lemming suicide. It subsequently transpired that the lemmings were filmed in Calgary not the Arctic Circle, they were thrown of the cliff by a Disney manufactured death contraption, and the featured polar bear was filmed in Disney Studios :ambivalence:

 

[Brent Swain]

unless you start smelting your own iron you are just as much part of what you phrase "the herd" otherwise known as wider society and economy. Doing things your own way is fine, but do not be so dismissive of those that go to work full time in proper jobs, without that "herd" there would be civilisation, no means of production, no steel, no welding rods, no scrapyards full of bits for you to scavenge. Decrying that civilisation and being an active part of it is fine, opt out then, but to the best of my knowledge, steel does not grow on trees. You seem to exist on the margins of society in your own way, people might applaud that you know, if you stop slating everyone else.

You remind me of the time in the late 80s during the cold war, when I was hitchiking up Vancouver Island . An old, army green truck ,with red stars, and hammers and sickle Russian flags painted all over it ,picked me up. (A communist fanatic.)
He sounded a lot like you, when he said "The individual MUST serve the system." ( A corner stone of the communist manifesto, he said).
Sounds like you are suggesting that Hiscock ,Moitessier, and all who have quit work to go cruising , including many people here, are morally wrong.
Any cruisers here want to to respond, to that insult?
Are you suggesting that we should all be morally required to live a lifestyle which would take several more planets to sustain, squandering our future generation's lives, and options?
Seems you are suggesting that humanity is here to serve industry, rather than industry to serve humanity.

Anyone here think he has it bass ackwards?

Several Octobers ago, I read in National Geographic, that the average house in the western US uses 300 gallons of fresh water a day.

Any cruisers here want to to give us an estimate of how long that much water would last them while cruising?

My living space is 10 ft by 24 ft, pointed in the end, and very well insulated. I only heat it while I am home, unlike the average house , which is heated 24-7, 6 months a year. My heat source is carbon neutral, and comes from within 100 yards of her .Oil tankers serve very little of my needs, and none of my heating needs. The Exon Valdes spill, the BP spill, and many others, were not due to my high demands and consumption.
I heard of how much electrical power the average house uses. I calculated mine to be 1/10,000 that amount. That was before LEDs . Now is 1/10th even that amount. I generate it by solar panels and a wind generator, not by burning coal, oil or damming great rivers.
I have never suggested that everyone adopt my lifestyle, only that it is an option ,extremely environmentally responsible, sustainable, and that anyone can do it affordably. The later irritates those who make a living out of keeping it expensive.
Seems the greatest critics, and the most likely to ridicule the concept of building your own gear ,innovating, and doing things for yourself, are those who are incapable of doing so, to try justify their own incompetence, and huge environmental footprint.
Ones personal environmental footprint is measured by how much money one goes thru, with very few exceptions.

 

[bbg]

You remind me of the time in the late 80s during the cold war, when I was hitchiking up Vancouver Island . An old, army green truck ,with red stars, and hammers and sickle Russian flags painted all over it ,picked me up. (A communist fanatic.)
He sounded a lot like you, when he said "The individual MUST serve the system." ( A corner stone of the communist manifesto, he said).
Sounds like you are suggesting that Hiscock ,Moitessier, and all who have quit work to go cruising , including many people here, are morally wrong.
Any cruisers here want to to respond, to that insult?

You are the only one on this thread who is criticising others for not doing things your way.

Pretty much everyone else is saying that the way you do things is fine ... for you.

What you don't accept is that there are other ways of doing things. Open your eyes. Cast aside your preconceived notions.

What you have done is fine for you, but I would never have a steel boat. It doesn't suit what I want to do. It isn't the optimum choice for what most people want to do.

I don't understand why you have such a hard time accepting that.

 

[solent clown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jclPWidTfak

 

[Brent Swain]

You are the only one on this thread who is criticising others for not doing things your way.

Pretty much everyone else is saying that the way you do things is fine ... for you.

What you don't accept is that there are other ways of doing things. Open your eyes. Cast aside your preconceived notions.

What you have done is fine for you, but I would never have a steel boat. It doesn't suit what I want to do. It isn't the optimum choice for what most people want to do.

I don't understand why you have such a hard time accepting that.

Can you show me the post where I said that ALL 7 billion people on the planet should go cruising on steel boats, as you imply?
This is kinda like a marriage ,where one person says one thing, and the other hears the exact opposite.
You are putting words in my mouth ,so you will have something to argue against.
If I give ANY of the many advantages of a steel boat for offshore cruising, some insecure people will no doubt, take it as a total putdown of their choice, which they defensively delude themselves into believing that it has ZERO negatives, and steel has ZERO positives, as you so misleadingly imply.

 

[Mister E]

BS you are the one so fond of the sheepe word for those that do not want to live them same way you do.
If you did not intend that to be an insult, then you must be I feel a nasty peice of work.

 

[Brent Swain]

BS you are the one so fond of the sheepe word for those that do not want to live them same way you do.
If you did not intend that to be an insult, then you must be I feel a nasty peice of work.

A totally appropriate response, to anyone who constantly jeers at and ridicules any suggestion of doing things differently , and tries an alternative routes, from that which has taken up decades of wannabe cruisers freedom to cruise, and cost many lives, to inferior, mass produced gear and boats.

Your sanctimonius ,elitist attitude is the same as that which has led to severe restrictions on cruising freedom in Florida, and elsewhere .

 

[Mister E]

BS you claim you ndo not insult people with your sheepe nonsense even those who have not made any comment about those cruising full time.
You then go on to make statements about me, who you do not know.

Having read most of your stuff I know for certain that you are not the sort of person I would seek as company.
You have done a very good job of putting me off steel boats, for that thank you.

 

[rotrax]

BS you claim you ndo not insult people with your sheepe nonsense even those who have not made any comment about those cruising full time.
You then go on to make statements about me, who you do not know.

Having read most of your stuff I know for certain that you are not the sort of person I would seek as company.
You have done a very good job of putting me off steel boats, for that thank you.

I echo your sentiment.

I could easily imagine a conversation with BS going something like:-

" Hi Brent-did you see the Royal Wedding? "

" Yes-but what a missed oppertunity-they should have got married on the deck of a home built steel boat of origami design! "

One trick pony, IMHO...........................

 

[bbg]

Can you show me the post where I said that ALL 7 billion people on the planet should go cruising on steel boats, as you imply?
This is kinda like a marriage ,where one person says one thing, and the other hears the exact opposite.
You are putting words in my mouth ,so you will have something to argue against.
If I give ANY of the many advantages of a steel boat for offshore cruising, some insecure people will no doubt, take it as a total putdown of their choice, which they defensively delude themselves into believing that it has ZERO negatives, and steel has ZERO positives, as you so misleadingly imply.

I do recognise that steel has certain advantages, and would be the best choice for certain people who choose to go long distance cruising.

Do you recognise that GRP also has certain advantages, and would be the best choice for other people who choose to go long distance cruising?

It is a yes or no question. Without elaboration. Just yes or no.

 

[DownWest]

I do recognise that steel has certain advantages, and would be the best choice for certain people who choose to go long distance cruising.

Do you recognise that GRP also has certain advantages, and would be the best choice for other people who choose to go long distance cruising?

It is a yes or no question. Without elaboration. Just yes or no.

Good luck with that BBG
BS doesn't answer questions, just promotes his ideas and slags off anybody who tries to reason with him. Not to mention libelous comments about professional steel boatbuilders.
The last post above, barely made sense and was hardly a reply to Mr E.
Reading a very long thread over on SA, several recognised designers offered to help him with calculations, when it became apparent that he had made none for his boats. Wasted their time, as did guys who actually had built several steel boats and reasonably questioned his time scales. He really does live in a different world, but might be part of the wider cruising community if he could be a bit less paranoid and learn some social skills.

 

[rotrax]

Good luck with that BBG
BS doesn't answer questions, just promotes his ideas and slags off anybody who tries to reason with him. Not to mention libelous comments about professional steel boatbuilders.
The last post above, barely made sense and was hardly a reply to Mr E.
Reading a very long thread over on SA, several recognised designers offered to help him with calculations, when it became apparent that he had made none for his boats. Wasted their time, as did guys who actually had built several steel boats and reasonably questioned his time scales. He really does live in a different world, but might be part of the wider cruising community if he could be a bit less paranoid and learn some social skills.

And there you have it..............

 

[solent clown]

attempting any form of reason is futile. I used a phrase which he leapt on as he heard it somewhere, and coloured me a card carrying communist. I understand some ex colonials the other side of the pond have some paranoia in that area due to the past McCarthy hysteria, but the fact that he got it all utterly back to front was very telling. Education, erudition, and auto didaction, are life skills that allow some of us to evolve, experience new things, connect with others we do not entirely agree with, and learn. He does not possess any of these - or at least utilise them. it is a shame, as his mad max approach to boat building is fun, and there is something to learn from it, but talking to the guy is like the turtle and the scorpion.
As an aside to the commie slight, I for one did my bit during the cold war in military service. Being from a responsible military family we became part of the forces standing against the "red menace" instead of flitting off to semi retire in a lashed up iron hulk. Practice what you preach, tune out, drop out, and just go away. if you cant listen to others, no one will hear you anyway as anything more than a bore.

 

[Mister E]

SC what he does not seem to get is that most normal people do not care nor want to know about him.
Most normal people find it insulting being called a sheepe by somebody who has the social skills of a Hypo with toothache.

 

[Brent Swain]

I do recognise that steel has certain advantages, and would be the best choice for certain people who choose to go long distance cruising.

Do you recognise that GRP also has certain advantages, and would be the best choice for other people who choose to go long distance cruising?

It is a yes or no question. Without elaboration. Just yes or no.

Absolutely! Some prefer to take the risks of sinking quickly in the night ( we will never know how many have. They are no longer here to tell us about it) if they hit something solid in the night, for the sake of being stylish and shiny. Others prefer a greater sense of security against such possibility , preferring practicality over impressing the Joneses .
Style over substance ,or the reverse?
My posts are for those who prefer substance over style.

 

[Brent Swain]

You say no one there made libelous comments about me, including bare faced lies about my cruising and building experience, which I disproved ,which proof was deleted by the moderator.
When Perry said I had never left the mud flats in Comox for years, I was told the moderator could post where my posts were sent from. I asked him to, but he refused, because it would prove Perry a liar. Only two of my critics had built ,very rough, steel boats. One was taking years to do what I have repeatedly done in matter of days. My greatest critic ,Bob Perry, never answered the question of how many he had built with his own hands, owned, lived aboard , maintained for decades ( meaning none), nor, posted stability curves for any of his designs, yet ridiculed those done by my former critics, and used the strategy of deflection, by turning attention to criticizm of my designs, thus avoiding questions about his .
Was he one of the experts you mention , who claimed to have designed the Amazon, a Graham Shannon design he had nothing to do with designing?
Or his 37 ft steel boat , which he calculated the displacement at 27,000 lbs ,which the owner said was 36,000 lbs?
Or the expert with only plastic boat ,lake and ditch sailing experience, who lost lost his last boat in a lake , by tying bow on to a concrete dock with no spring lines?
Or was it the experts who said that, since building a steel boat will take long time , then why not add an extra year getting the hull and deck together, which will improve nothing in the finished product.
Some expert. He is definitely an expert at self promotion ,which should never be mistaken for an expert on that which he has never done, building, living aboard, maintaining and crossing oceans in a steel boat.

At any rate , I still enjoy waking up whenever I feel like waking up, go sailing whenever I feel like sailing ,ditto fishing, hunting, diving , biking, etc , and enjoy listening to the traffic report, on how those who say I am doing it all wrong , are living. Have been since my mid 20's. If you don't want to live this way, then don't read my posts. They are not aimed at you. I have thoroughly enjoyed having done it 'All wrong." Still do!