Startup Nav Package

[onesea]

Almost a clean start what would you recommend?

This is all to be mounted at a small chart table on a 30’ boat.

Presently I have:
Echo sounder,
Tiller Pilot,
A very old GPS - internal battery dead,
VHF-GMDSS,
Phones tablets etc with Navionics and others,

What I need to do is replace GPS for the GMDSS input.

What I would like to get:
GPS - preferably plotter with AIS input/ built in ( ideally with screen off function to save power),
Wind Direction (for tiller pilot),
Class B - AIS (Must be able to turn off class B and AIS), with Wifi for Navionics

I would like to avoid touch screen, the days when we are going to want this kit we are not likely to have dry hands.

I have seen the Onwa gear but, what else would you recommend?
Not wanting a log, I have trailing one if I need to do DR

Most of my Navigation is traditional I might not put positions on a chart but use phone/ tablet more as a guide to produce clearing bearings and courses to steer and distances for approximate ETA’s.
Much of the time the AIS will be off, and the GPS will be out of sight out of mind, the VHF is normally turned down low.

 

[scottie]

Joining the 21century and dispensing with the trailed log would be slightly flippant answer and put it all ,,where you can use it without going below

 

[ridgy]

Yes...what use is wind direction by the chart table? Only gps and VHF at the chart table with a GPS repeater upstairs. Distance to go is important to the crew and I like to know xte at a glance. A log is important for sail trimming.
Why turn the ais off when you've just spent 600 quid buying it?

 

[flaming]

What use is the boat getting? The setup I would want for day sailing in local waters is different from the setup I would want for channel crossings and different again if I was racing the boat.

 

[onesea]

So to answer some questions:
Wind:
- I can see wind speed and direction on the water and sails, good enough for my purposes,
- I would be able to stick my head in companionway to see information,
- The direction is so that it can be fed into autopilot, to steer to wind,

Log:
- We had one on our last boat it was constantly inaccurate, weed etc.
- The trailing log is just so I have something, incase.
- If push came to shove, its better to have something that works than something you cannot trust.

AIS:
- What's the point of turning it on when it's not going to be used?
- The thought is to WiFi info to tablets phones etc in fine weather,
- This is for fog and shipping lanes not for local sailing,

Use:
- At the moment typical weekend / day sailing, in known waters,
- Short handed or 2 up with dogs,
- There are plans to go further, 1 or 2 up hence questions,
- No plans for racing,

Screens Positions,
- There is no good space to place them in the cockpit,
- Where we could put them is where we sit,
- We already have phones and tablets we can use in the cockpit,

When the weather is such we are not able to use phones in cockpit, because they are already so wet the touch screen is useless.
Any screens in the cockpit would be wet enough to be difficult to read.
The ability to properly digest information becomes somewhat reduced.

 

[flaming]

I would check if you can use steer to wind function without the input from a log with your pilot. There's an automatic switching in my Raymarine unit that steers AWA upwind but TWA when off the wind, which won't work without log input. Dunno if that applies to the tiller pilots. Log is plenty accurate enough if you remove it when leaving the boat for any time.

I see where you're coming from with wet screens, however that's very much not been my experience. Even when absolutely soaked they stay readable, and the touchscreen I've used in the rain worked fine. Remember that unlike phones etc they are designed for this environment. If you don't have the space in the cockpit, then that's another consideration, but it certainly wouldn't be a reason to rule out touchscreen in my opinion.

AIS, the point of having it on is that others who are using it can see you.... I don't see a reason to turn it off....

In terms of brand etc, honestly I think these days it's more about which operating system you like more... Go to a chandlery with a few demo sets and have a play.

 

[onesea]

@flaming thanks for he response, yes tiller pilot will work with wind direction only, although I would expect to get wind speed as well.
As for operating system Navionics is my go to, this is about a little redundancy GPS for GMDSS and cost effective AIS.

PS do you think the chandelier will be happy when I turn up with water sprays to test operation

 

[Tranona]

as you are not racing I wonder why you posted here rather than on PBO where there is far more relevant traffic!

Anyway my two pennyworth being in a similar situation and my solution

First you do not need any of the fancy systems from the 3 main suppliers or the cut price similar things from Onwa. The two major selling features of their gear are integration through a network and functionality (readability waterproof and usability of controls) in the cockpit. The default system now is a master MFD, usually a chart plotter at the helm that integrates all your instruments (and other systems like engines, VHF, radar) and the autopilot.

You don't need any of this from what you describe, so it is no use buying it as you can never access most of its benefits.

Your needs can be met by sticking with the old NMEA 0183. A source of GPS signal - could be a DSC VHF with an 0183 output, a free standing GPS receiver or as I have an old Garmin 128. An AIS class B with a WiFi output, a 10" tablet with Navionics that will accept the WiFi output from the AIS and (optional) for speed a NASA Easylog that will give you speed over the ground from the GPS instead of the paddlewheel.

For wind to drive your tiller pilot, assuming you have one that will take 0183 such as the ST2000 a NASA wind instrument, probably the wireless version which will output the correct 0183 sentences to the pilot to steer to true wind. You won't get steer to AWA because that needs integration of wind and speed through the water. In addition to connections to the pilot you can also have a display. Personally I would put both the speed (if you choose that) and the wind display in the cockpit as they are of little use down below.

Plenty of mounting brackets for the tablet and you can wire it to your boat's 12v using a USB socket so it runs continually if you want. The display and control of the tablet is better than most dedicated chart plotters of similar size if used down below.

You can achieve all of this for around £1k (without the tiller pilot), about one third of what it would be for a Raymarine with the same basic functions.

 

[Birdseye]

Joining the 21century and dispensing with the trailed log would be slightly flippant answer and put it all ,,where you can use it without going below

Less sure about that. If used for cruising, there are arguments for having the kit below since most modern systems allow for data to be repeated with the above deck instruments. So if you are planning the next days course you can do it in comfort down below and then put it into action above deck. If you need a picture of where you are above deck then use your phone - they arent good for planning or serious nav IMO.

My advice, hard learned, would be in a different area. If buying new kit, but all from one brand. Trying to get different bits from different makers can be a PITA but more to the point you have to sort out issues on your own because maker A tech help always blame the issue on maker B equipent. And vice versa. Less of an issue with NMEA 2000 but even then.

 

[Birdseye]

I question the need for a log. They arent accurate - one of my past boats gave different readings on different tacks at the same gps speed - the underwater profile around the log wasnt symetrical. Plus of course its another hole in the hull. And finally what really matters is your speed over the ground anyway.

Having said all that I am off down to the boat today to get my log working. If there is one thing more irritating than incorrect data it is a a blank screen!

 

[onesea]

I question the need for a log. They arent accurate - one of my past boats gave different readings on different tacks at the same gps speed - the underwater profile around the log wasnt symetrical. Plus of course its another hole in the hull. And finally what really matters is your speed over the ground anyway.

Having said all that I am off down to the boat today to get my log working. If there is one thing more irritating than incorrect data it is a a blank screen!

Having just met someone who was having boat lifted due to failed log through hull. My decision was reconfirmed.

As you say with a long keel boat it will always read faster in one track than the other.

As for black screen of data, just leave the cover on then you don't see it ,

 

[Sandy]

I have a 10.10 m, 33ft in old money, boat with a nav station that can take an Admiralty SC folo chart. Instrumentation wise I have the GNX Wired Sail Pack 52 connected via a NMEA 2000 backbone to an ancient Garmin plotter, 18 HD+ Radar, with a VespaMarine AIS Watchmate Class B AIS displaying on the plotter that can go into stealth mode, but never use that. I've also got temperature and barometer sensors on the NMEA 2000 backbone as this gives me additional weather information (as it was much cheaper than a couple of posh brass instruments). I have moved away from NMEA 0183 to 2000 is it really is just plug and play. No need to sit and look at wiring diagrams and hoping that a GPS sentence will get from instrument A to instrument B. My MFD, AIS and VHF all have their own internal GPS receivers - sods law says it it can go wrong it will and usually at the moment you need it to be working most.

Personally, I prefer fitting single brand kit from a company that has a good service support department that way I avoid multiple companies saying 'not our problem mate' as it is all your kit and you need to sort out why it is not talking to each other when things go wrong. Been there got the tee shirt in my professional life.

I don't understand why you had problems with your old log. Did you keep it in situ permanently? I replace the log with a blanking plate when not using the boat. Having depth, boat speed and temperature on the one sensor is great. Especially when I can justify that it is too cold for a swim.

Have you considered making a holder for a MDF that swings round into the companionway where it can be seen from the tiller. All of the wind and water data is available on the MDF. I like the duel functionality of having instrumentation above the companionway as everybody in the cockpit can see it and the helm can choose what is best for their needs on the MFD. It also means I can sit in the companionway and get all the data for the logbook when it is blowing a hooly with my legs in the cabin.

Some thoughts:

Having boatspeed and GPS speed gives you lots of information about the tide (SOG v STW). As for different speeds on different tacks - somebody has placed the sensor in the wrong place - I still get pissed off at the person who placed the thru hull in a position with the starboard toe rail in the water I lose the depth, but still have boat speed and in conditions like that I don't really care if it is warm enough to go swimming! AIS is good for letting family and friends know where you are - useful on longer passages and when you are far from home. People will know if you are going to make it to the pub in time for last orders.

Finally, I am not a fan of tablets for navigation they are difficult to see, get wet and die, but I prefer using an old fashioned chart and use the MFD to record all sorts of date for later analysis at home, e.g. track,boat speed, SOG, TWD, TWS, AWA, and even water temp if I was that interested.

Good luck in putting a system together that works for you.

 

[B27]

We mostly use a tablet as a chart plotter, Navionics boating.
We carry paper charts.
We have a tillerpilot.
We have a depth sounder, a log and a wind instrument.
We have a traditional magnetic compass.

When conditions get a little difficult, the most useful thing to add to that is IMHO, a retro style GPS or repeater, showing you the COG, SOG and bearing and distance to the right waypoint.
Decent size display that you can read while using both hands to sail the boat when the autopilot struggles with the sea state.

An autopilot which could steer to the wind adequately in all conditions and all courses would probably cost more than my boat.
I'm not talking about last Saturday's Fastnet conditions, just a 27ft bilge keeler in a F5+, your normal Cornish conditions of the wind and swell not aligned, and where you want to go is close to downwind.

We race dinghies without all the numbers, but then we expect to mostly be able to see the next mark.

If the OP is concerned about feeding a GPS position to the VHF for DSC 'red button' purposes, maybe get a GPS 'active aerial' unit with an NMEA output and dedicate that to the VHF?

Beyond that, how much do you want to speed and what exactly do you want from it?

 

[ChromeDome]

To balance the view take at look at Orca

Several solutions in different capability/price brackets.

 

[Daydream believer]

Personally, I prefer fitting single brand kit from a company that has a good service support department that way I avoid multiple companies saying 'not our problem mate' as it is all your kit and you need to sort out why it is not talking to each other when things go wrong. Been there got the tee shirt in my professional life.

I don't understand why you had problems with your old log. Did you keep it in situ permanently? I replace the log with a blanking plate when not using the boat. Having depth, boat speed and temperature on the one sensor is great. Especially when I can justify that it is too cold for a swim.

Have you considered making a holder for a MDF that swings round into the companionway where it can be seen from the tiller. All of the wind and water data is available on the MDF. I like the duel functionality of having instrumentation above the companionway as everybody in the cockpit can see it and the helm can choose what is best for their needs on the MFD. It also means I can sit in the companionway and get all the data for the logbook when it is blowing a hooly with my legs in the cabin.

Some thoughts:

Having boatspeed and GPS speed gives you lots of information about the tide (SOG v STW). As for different speeds on different tacks - somebody has placed the sensor in the wrong place - I still get pissed off at the person who placed the thru hull in a position with the starboard toe rail in the water I lose the depth, but still have boat speed and in conditions like that I don't really care if it is warm enough to go swimming! AIS is good for letting family and friends know where you are - useful on longer passages and when you are far from home. People will know if you are going to make it to the pub in time for last orders.

Finally, I am not a fan of tablets for navigation they are difficult to see, get wet and die, but I prefer using an old fashioned chart and use the MFD to record all sorts of date for later analysis at home, e.g. track,boat speed, SOG, TWD, TWS, AWA, and even water temp if I was that interested.

Good luck in putting a system together that works for you.

I have similar thoughts. I admit to having a Garmin MFD with the rest Raymarine but that is because , whichever goes first will decide which manufcaturer I will back infuture. The garmin can be programmed from below.
I have tried a mish mash of cheepo makes NASA ,Echomax, Lorenze, Simrad ( supplied with the boat Urgh) etc. All rubbish in the end.
Trying to save money does not work in the long run. Bite the bullet & go with a single manufacturer.
Touch screen is great. It is NOT a problem with rain & wet hands. I have a hood for mine as it sits behind my tiller, where I can use it whilst helming. Important for AIS. If I want I can disable the transmit function but keep the rceive one on.
I do not have an issue with my log. I use the correct antifoul paint for it. Mid season I pull it out & clean it with a toothbrush --IF I need to. Which is not always.

 

[ChromeDome]

Touch screens: Not for me, not in the car either.

Works fine when parked, else pretty irritating.

 

[Daydream believer]

Touch screens: Not for me, not in the car either.

Works fine when parked, else pretty irritating.

Can you really compare those in a car with those in a boat,? Using an MFD under way on a boat, is not like trying to use a touch screen on the M25 at 70MPH

 

[ChromeDome]

The degree of chop/pot holes makes it quite hard to get things right first time.

 

[requiem]

Being cheap has a price; my observations from watching people try to patch together systems is that it tends to result in "brittle" solutions that are painful to troubleshoot, will be even more painful to maintain or upgrade, and even when working result in "doing things the hard way".

If the plain is to be sailing in bad weather then a proper MFD at the helm is wise. As mentioned they can be used when wet; the touchscreens are far cruder in precision than an iThing but similarly they don't have a seizure when hit by spray. For fog I'd be thinking radar even before AIS. A small repeater at the chart table allows keeping an eye on things from below, but most MFDs should allow you to use a phone or tablet as a repeater.

My preference is to use laptop, phone, and tablet for navigation; the MFD is used for basic situational awareness. I would prefer the VHF not rely on the MFD for a location; I might want the radio on at anchor and having the MFD powered down means the radio would eventually start bleating an alarm at an inconvenient time.

 

[B27]

Reading requiem's post above, it occurs to me that what instruments/systems you need depends on how you intend to navigate.
The way I tend to navigate, I see no benefit in linking stuff together.
I don't want the depth sounder taking up expensive pixels on the chart plotter.
I don't need to calculate true wind or anything, I'm happy with an indication of apparent.
For longer passages in open water, I don't really get much gain from a chart plotter, but it earns its keep in pilotage.

In the old days, we'd have had more detail in passage plans, now we rely on the plotter and change our plans as we go.

I've had enough wiring problems on boats to quite like things that stand alone.
A sounder that just works given (about) 12 Volts.
A plotter which isn't sulking because some sensor is sending it gibberish.
A tiller pilot that just wants 12V.
An android tablet which puts you on the map even without 12V.

I have a TackTick digital compass on a racing dinghy, it is way superior to the plastimo compass on the yacht.
If you enjoy sailing efficiently, maybe a digital compass is worth considering?

Radar and AIS, nice to have, how desirable will depend on how and where you sail.

But the essentials are still some paper charts, a compass and an almanac.
You'd have to be trying to prove something not to add a GPS to that.
Next you want a depth sounder. a) for avoiding the bottom close to the shore, and b) to confirm where you are on the chart, to stay clear enough of the shore etc.

And can we have the instruments mounted where the crew doesn't block the helms view of them?
But also where the crew can see them too...