Starting area collision. Who to blame?

[Resolution]

Recently there was a damaging collision in the starting area of races being run by a local sailing club. Boat X was on starboard and was T-boned by boat Y which was on port. Both boats were intending to race, but in different classes. Boat Y's class had started their starting sequence, whereas Boat X's class had not.
Subsequently Boat X sank.

Any views as to what RRS rules should apply, what racing penalties could be applied, and who should pay for the damage?

 

[Racecruiser]

Suggest you double-post onto the new Yacht Racing forum (yes I know double posting is a crime but hey)!

Couple of points I reckon:

1. Irrespective of racing, boat Y was on port so is in the wrong.
2. Boat X should have been elsewhere if their starting sequence had not started (assuming they were both in the start area) but this does not trump 1.
3. The usual reason for a T-bone (unless they hadn't seen the other boat) is the main sheet not being eased/dumped on a bear away round a starboard tacker's stern!

 

[Talulah]

Suggest you double-post onto the new Yacht Racing forum (yes I know double posting is a crime but hey)!

Couple of points I reckon:

1. Irrespective of racing, boat Y was on port so is in the wrong.
2. Boat X should have been elsewhere if their starting sequence had not started (assuming they were both in the start area) but this does not trump 1.
3. The usual reason for a T-bone (unless they hadn't seen the other boat) is the main sheet not being eased/dumped on a bear away round a starboard tacker's stern!

 

[Talulah]

Suggest you double-post onto the new Yacht Racing forum (yes I know double posting is a crime but hey)!

Couple of points I reckon:

1. Irrespective of racing, boat Y was on port so is in the wrong.
2. Boat X should have been elsewhere if their starting sequence had not started (assuming they were both in the start area) but this does not trump 1.
3. The usual reason for a T-bone (unless they hadn't seen the other boat) is the main sheet not being eased/dumped on a bear away round a starboard tacker's stern!

I'm not so sure about the above. Are you sure 2 doesn't trump 1?

 

[lpdsn]

I'm not so sure about the above. Are you sure 2 doesn't trump 1?

It doesn't. A boat that isn't starting should be out of the way of boats racing, but it doesn't trump port/starboard.

As for the OP's questions. As Racecruiser says, plus Boat Y should probably retire or be disqualified under Rule 14 anyway. Boat X is probably going to be scored DNF.

In terms of insurance claim (or even disqualification) it doesn't look good for the port tacker, but you do have to allow for the exact circumstances. The port tacker may have been missing the stbd tacker, when the latter suddenly altered course to clear the start area, for example.

 

[Thistle]

Anything relevant in the Sailing Instructions? What did the Protest Committee decide?

 

[dom]

This is an interesting question, but to answer it properly the forum will I think require some additional information:

1. The precise circumstances surrounding how the port boat came to be on port in the starting area: was he forced onto port?, when did he tack?, etc
2. As others have said, we really need the sailing instructions in their entirety.

In general The Racing Rules explicitly protect boats before their start from interference by boats that either have been racing, or are awaiting a later start. Rule 24.1 requires that "if reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing." Note that a boat is racing from her preparatory signal. Incidentally rule 24.1 always applies and on all parts of the course. Nevertheless many sailing instructions go further and may for example create explicit exclusion zones where "non-racing" (in the sense of awaiting their preparatory signal) boats cannot enter. So this does not look good for the port tacker and he may well (depending on the circumstances which need to be clarified) be disqualified for this breach. ....but!

No sailing instruction can change primary right of way rules RRS 10 to 13 and RRS 10 is Port/Stbd. Even of the sailing instructions placed a restriction on the right-of-way boat to enter the start area, this does not (as lpdsn points out) in any way absolve the obligations of the keep-clear boat. The OP also mentions that considerable damage was incurred, which takes the matter out of the area of redress which may be provided by a race committee, to decisions which can only be taken in a court of law and case law . As I understand it cases where Racing Rules require such an interpretation (happy to be corrected here) are both patchy and inconsistent across different jurisdictions. Insurers will therefore most likely settle the matter between them and both parties will suffer a decent hike in premiums next year.

 

[awol]

Not really a problem. Boat X was not racing ("racing" and RRS don't turn on until the preparatory signal) so RRS don't apply - protest committee won't be interested. So it's a simple port/starboard under IRPCS where both are likely to carry blame with boat Y needing a pretty good case to avoid the bigger part.

 

[Resolution]

Some interesting comments. Firstly, I do not know what was in the SIs or what was the outcome of the protest committee (assuming there was one). The incident was described to me by a friend who was participating in the racing that day. As there was significant damage and may be financial brickbats flying around it may be best if we kept our comments on a hypothetical basis.

Back to the questions. I think dom has summed it up pretty accurately. IMHO, boat X was "intending to race" but not yet"racing" and therefore was subject to the RRS and in particular Rule 24.1. Next point to establish is whether boat Y was "racing" or just "intending to race". If racing, then they could protest boat X under Rule 24.1 and boat Y would IMHO be liable to disqualification. (As well as having been sunk!). My info is that the starting sequence for boat Y had started, so at least the warning signal had been hoisted, but a boat is only "racing" from the time of their preparatory signal. So if the collision took place before the preparatory signal, then boat Y would not be able to protest under Rule 24.1.
Then we come down to the port/starboard rules. As dom said, we probably need more info to see if there were any exonerating circumstances or other boats that complicate the picture, but afraid that we just don't know this time.

Pre-start manoeuvres are usually full of excitement and tension; I thought that this was a useful case to clarify a rule that is often ignored.

Anyone got more insights?

 

[dom]

Not really a problem. Boat X was not racing ("racing" and RRS don't turn on until the preparatory signal) so RRS don't apply - protest committee won't be interested. So it's a simple port/starboard under IRPCS where both are likely to carry blame with boat Y needing a pretty good case to avoid the bigger part.

No I don't that's right. The RRS offer explicit methods to protect boats before their start frominterference from boats that have been racing or intend to race in the same event, but in a later start

 

[lw395]

Not really a problem. Boat X was not racing ("racing" and RRS don't turn on until the preparatory signal) so RRS don't apply - protest committee won't be interested. So it's a simple port/starboard under IRPCS where both are likely to carry blame with boat Y needing a pretty good case to avoid the bigger part.

Wrong.
Racing rules apply to boats intending to race.

 

[lw395]

Stbd boat is dsq for failing to keep clear of a boat that was racing when she was not. (assuming prep signal had been given!)
Port boat is likely DSQ for failing to take sufficient action to prevent a collision resulting in damage.
Unless she can prove she had no opportunity to keep clear.

If the prep signal had not been made, neither boat is racing, but both are still under RRS.
RRS is different from IRPCS, it has clear restrictions on acquiring right of way and changing course, where colregs are more about two boats approaching each other on steady courses from over the horizon.
So, it is likely to be more complex.
Was the port boat keeping clear of another boat that the stbd boat also had to keep clear of?
Start lines are rarely a two boat problem.
How long had each boat been on its course?

Don't forget it is possible for both to be in the wrong under RRS, but that has limited influence in a civil court should it come to that.

 

[awol]

No I don't that's right. The RRS offer explicit methods to protect boats before their start frominterference from boats that have been racing or intend to race in the same event, but in a later start

I presume you are referring to

24.1 - If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing.

and the preamble to Section 2 offers

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 24.1.

So, yes, you are right and I was wrong, but there would have to be a lot more to it than a simple t-bone of a starboard tack yacht. If the collision happened before the preparatory signal but after the starting sequence had begun then 24.1 doesn't apply.

 

[dom]

So, yes, you are right and I was wrong, but there would have to be a lot more to it than a simple t-bone of a starboard tack yacht.
If the collision happened before the preparatory signal but after the starting sequence had begun then 24.1 doesn't apply.

Agreed, in fact I'd take a bet that the ultimate juxtaposition of the boats in question was the result of a sequence of argy-bargy WTF moments!

Re your second point, you may or may not be right subject to the specific SIs, but with the normal ones you would, "Boats whose warning signal has not been made shall avoid the starting area during thestarting sequence for other races." That said, I've never sailed in a big boat race where one fleet has received its warning signal while another has yet to go. Someone will no doubt come along to tell me I'm wrong! ....the Boat Repairers Classic, or something

 

[John the kiwi]

As I understand and without reference to clauses, there are two different strands in the interpretation.
First is that racing rules do not trump standard port starboard rules in any circumstances. If, for example, a hypothetical Joe Soap who is not racing or even aware of the race, blunders on through the race or pre-start , he is guilty of discourtesy but still entitled to Colregs right of way if he is on stbd. So any Port tack boats whether in racing or pre-start or whatever still need to give way to Joe Soap who is on stbd.
We have seen in these forums many times that a cry of "but i am racing!" doesn't give automatic right of way.
(Exceptions obviously when Harbour Master applies restrictions through proper channels for Olympics etc, but doesnt seem to be the case here, and even if it were so, colregs still apply.)

So the second strand is what can the race committee do? Well the race committee can penalise through points or disqualification if Joe Soap is part of the event, and is "in the way" in contravention of sailing instructions. This still doesn't give the Port Tack boat any right of way.
However if Joe Soap is not particpating in the event then essentially the race committee have no jurisdiction over him. If there is a restricted water thing in place then HM can apply legal penalties but that is different.

There are some racing rules that do take effect from time of start of racing, but they only apply to the boats that are both racing. Buoy room etc. A boat that is racing must still follow normal colregs when it meets a boat that is not racing and that seems to be the case here.
Of course if there is a collision, you are automatically at fault even if you had right of way for not doing all in your power to avoid collision. So as awol says both boats are in the wrong, but port tacker will probably carry the larger portion of blame.

 

[lw395]

Agreed, in fact I'd take a bet that the ultimate juxtaposition of the boats in question was the result of a sequence of argy-bargy WTF moments!

Re your second point, you may or may not be right subject to the specific SIs, but with the normal ones you would, "Boats whose warning signal has not been made shall avoid the starting area during thestarting sequence for other races." That said, I've never sailed in a big boat race where one fleet has received its warning signal while another has yet to go. Someone will no doubt come along to tell me I'm wrong! ....the Boat Repairers Classic, or something

Cowes week under the old rules?
10 minute gun on outer line was 5 minute gun on the inner line etc.

 

[dom]

Cowes week under the old rules?
10 minute gun on outer line was 5 minute gun on the inner line etc.

Gosh yes, that's right! As a matter of interest, and only if you happen to remember, can you recall what the old SIs specified to keep the t < 5 fleet apart from the 10 > t > 5 fleet?

 

[lw395]

As I understand and without reference to clauses, there are two different strands in the interpretation.
First is that racing rules do not trump standard port starboard rules in any circumstances. If, for example, a hypothetical Joe Soap who is not racing or even aware of the race, blunders on through the race or pre-start , he is guilty of discourtesy but still entitled to Colregs right of way if he is on stbd. So any Port tack boats whether in racing or pre-start or whatever still need to give way to Joe Soap who is on stbd............

I attended a rules presentation where the speaker, an international judge and coach of some repute started by asking us to list the situations where a starboard boat needs to keep clear of a port boat. There are apparently more than 5 distinct scenarios.

 

[Resolution]

As I understand and without reference to clauses, there are two different strands in the interpretation.
First is that racing rules do not trump standard port starboard rules in any circumstances. If, for example, a hypothetical Joe Soap who is not racing or even aware of the race, blunders on through the race or pre-start , he is guilty of discourtesy but still entitled to Colregs right of way if he is on stbd. So any Port tack boats whether in racing or pre-start or whatever still need to give way to Joe Soap who is on stbd.
We have seen in these forums many times that a cry of "but i am racing!" doesn't give automatic right of way.
(Exceptions obviously when Harbour Master applies restrictions through proper channels for Olympics etc, but doesnt seem to be the case here, and even if it were so, colregs still apply.)

So the second strand is what can the race committee do? Well the race committee can penalise through points or disqualification if Joe Soap is part of the event, and is "in the way" in contravention of sailing instructions. This still doesn't give the Port Tack boat any right of way.
However if Joe Soap is not particpating in the event then essentially the race committee have no jurisdiction over him. If there is a restricted water thing in place then HM can apply legal penalties but that is different.

There are some racing rules that do take effect from time of start of racing, but they only apply to the boats that are both racing. Buoy room etc. A boat that is racing must still follow normal colregs when it meets a boat that is not racing and that seems to be the case here.
Of course if there is a collision, you are automatically at fault even if you had right of way for not doing all in your power to avoid collision. So as awol says both boats are in the wrong, but port tacker will probably carry the larger portion of blame.

In this case both boats were "intending to race". Therefore the Rules do apply to both of them (see the preamble to Part 2 of the RRS). And the RRS over-ride Colrregs when both parties are racing.

 

[lw395]

Gosh yes, that's right! As a matter of interest, and only if you happen to remember, can you recall what the old SIs specified to keep the t < 5 fleet apart from the 10 > t > 5 fleet?

I don't recall the exact SI's but I can remember some stressful moments trying to get back to the correct side of our ODM in a small keelboat doing what seemed like 4 knots in 3.99 knots of tide. Plus in the old days, you had to get close enough to the castle to read the course board after the 10 minute gun. The real bloodshed was normally a few hundred yards up the Green though, when all the fleets get mixed up bouncing off the rocks to avoid the worst of the tide.