Starter Yachts

[Slow_boat]

The first 'big boat' I owned was a Vivacity 20. I spent a year re-building one, launched and swmbo came out once, then proclaimed that there was no way she and teenaged daughter would be going for a fortnights cruise in that little thing. They wanted standing headroom, a seperate heads, seperate fore cabin, inboard engine, proper galley. When I asked what I was expected to do in the 6 weeks available before the holiday she said 'Best get a bigger boat, hadn't we?'

So I sold a motorbike and we bought a Macwester 26

After a couple of years smbo wanted a bigger, faster, more modern boat we could cross the north sea in and take rougher weather, with an oven, and a sink you can stand at, and a heads you can stand up in and and and..... So we sold the house and bought a Sadler 29.

Now she wants a catamaran................

The point I'm trying to make is that while years ago the family holiday was to load wife and kids in a sidecar with a tent and spend a week camping in Cornish rain, people demand more these days. They're not willing to 'rough it' a bit. That and the easily available credit until a year or two ago meant folk would go straight for a 30' plus boat and don't see the point in an 'appreticeship' sailing dinghies and getting bigger and bigger boats when they could afford to buy or build one, or gaining experience crewing other peoples boats.

Whether that is a good thing or not is another discussion.

 

[Tradewinds]

In Spain I have seen one boat that would make a good starter boat. It is the Fortuna 9 a 9 metre sailboat that has attained mythical status in Spanish marine circles and the truth is they're not bad. These days you could probably get one for between €20,000-€30,000 which granted is not that cheap and it would probably be about 20 years old. They were very popular with about 800 built.
Here is a link with some pictures http://www.cosasdebarcos.com/galeria-fotos-barco-fortuna-9-79634040082855705656696757524549.html

Has any one seen one in the UK?

Brgds
SB03

On my travels I came across a fine man called Pedro who sailed one of these single-handed.

It took him almost around the world (he unfortunately struck a reef in Sudan due to a navigational error as he made his way up the Red Sea).

That disaster apart he had a fine time and went to all the places (on the coconut run) that everybody else went to - he thought very highly of his yacht (rightly so).

So a starter yacht that's more than capable of a bit of adventure!

 

[Slow_boat]

Very nice but don't you think 9 meters is a tad on the large side for a first boat?

 

[Tradewinds]

Very nice but don't you think 9 meters is a tad on the large side for a first boat?

I guess you're replying to my post (I tried looking at threaded / hybrid posts but gave up).

Yes, as soon as I hit the send button I thought someone would pick up on it. But I don't think 9m is too big for a starter boat - especially a light manoeuverable boat like the Fortuna or similar.

Hey - if you weren't replying to me forget the above

 

[Madhatter]

Thanks for starting this thread Searush and others in the same ilk .
I am about to enter my first season of sailing and after much thinking I opted to buy a 15 foot Sunspot bilge keeled trailer sailor ( the make was not the main criteria but size and keel was) I paid about £450 for it without trailer I considered it a fair price as it was in average nick for it's age in fact ready to sail with a bit of TLC.I considered it would be an ideal boat to learn on and gain enough knowledge about boats to make a considered decision for a larger boat so that I could venture further afield and stay aboard for more than the odd night.
A first boat is in my opinion a very important step and the wrong choice could put you off your chosen pastime forever also spending £20 - 30 thousand on a first boat seems to me to be a bit rash even for the well off.
Derrick

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Very nice but don't you think 9 meters is a tad on the large side for a first boat?

No way! I started smaller than that, but it was 20 years ago. If I started again now, I would probably go for a Bav of 10 to 11 meters - a well known make that would be easy to re-sell, and enough on board facilities to make swmbo happy. Whats more, boat safety is directly related to boat size - the bigger, the safer

 

[Searush]

Thanks for starting this thread Searush and others in the same ilk .
I am about to enter my first season of sailing and after much thinking I opted to buy a 15 foot Sunspot bilge keeled trailer sailor ( the make was not the main criteria but size and keel was) I paid about £450 for it without trailer I considered it a fair price as it was in average nick for it's age in fact ready to sail with a bit of TLC.I considered it would be an ideal boat to learn on and gain enough knowledge about boats to make a considered decision for a larger boat so that I could venture further afield and stay aboard for more than the odd night.
A first boat is in my opinion a very important step and the wrong choice could put you off your chosen pastime forever also spending £20 - 30 thousand on a first boat seems to me to be a bit rash even for the well off.
Derrick

Thanks for the compliment. Anyway, what you have done is the classic "suck it & see". Don't spend a fortune, but pick something to have fun with & see how it goes. If you like it, fine, you will now have a MUCH clearer idea of what you need. If not, sell it & you will get most of your money back - even if you can't sell it, or even if you sink it, you ain't lost much & had a load of fun.

There is a saying that "the fun you get out of a boat is in inverse proportion to its size & cost." You don't NEED to start in a big boat. Great if you can afford it, but for F's sake don't fail to start just because you can't afford the boat you really fancy.

Take heart all you impoverished youngsters, you don't need to be a millionaire to sail - you just need determination & the ability to learn quickly.

 

[Madhatter]

Thanks for the compliment. Anyway, what you have done is the classic "suck it & see". Don't spend a fortune, but pick something to have fun with & see how it goes. If you like it, fine, you will now have a MUCH clearer idea of what you need. If not, sell it & you will get most of your money back - even if you can't sell it, or even if you sink it, you ain't lost much & had a load of fun.

There is a saying that "the fun you get out of a boat is in inverse proportion to its size & cost." You don't NEED to start in a big boat. Great if you can afford it, but for F's sake don't fail to start just because you can't afford the boat you really fancy.

Take heart all you impoverished youngsters, you don't need to be a millionaire to sail - you just need determination & the ability to learn quickly.

Wish I was !!

 

[Madhatter]

No way! I started smaller than that, but it was 20 years ago. If I started again now, I would probably go for a Bav of 10 to 11 meters - a well known make that would be easy to re-sell, and enough on board facilities to make swmbo happy. Whats more, boat safety is directly related to boat size - the bigger, the safer

BH with hindsight me thinks , but when you made that decision -----
Derrick

 

[moondancer]

I don't believe that there is a realistic market for small starter yachts.

There are many makes of small yachts that sell very well in warmer climes that just dont sell here despite regular attempts to introduce a number of the brands.

In France the Archambualt Surprise still sells in numbers that are unhead of here. Then they have the pogo and all the others inspired by the Mini series. Beneteau and Jeaneau sell large numbers of their smaller yachts on the continent yet only a relative handfull here.

A few years ago, I and a few others were convinced that there was a market for a small boat if priced well enough. So we looked at the Argentinian Malbec range, selling like hot cakes in Spain, Italy and many other countries.

Most journalists and industry professionals we spoke to felt that people in the UK new boat market had been conditioned through charter holidays and sail training to see 34 foot as the minimum entry size. We felt offering a good sailing, value product at entry level pricing would be attractive to all those bemoaning the lack of affordable starter yachts.

Despite some very good boat tests in all the major titles, good racing results the sales were disappointing, particularly of the smaller models. In fact the 20 footer, although for sale at around 10K didn't sell at all.

OK the boats were fairly focussed on the performance end of the spectrum but the work we did and the research we did on sales here compared to the continent made it fairly clear that the market just doesn't exist for a 'starter yacht' over here.

The secondhand market is a great place to buy smaller yachts and there is great value to be had for anything over ten years under 32 foot.

That many new entrants to sailing are looking for a ben/jen/bav 36 is one reasn that such boats are good value.

 

[Ubergeekian]

nowadays traditional Family use = bigger boat, for much the same reasons that no demand for Ford to reintroduce the MK1 Escort.

Isn't that effective the Ka's market point?

The big questions to me is "Are the people who used to cram Mum, Dad and two kids into a Corribee for a week...

• still doing it in a small boat of their own
• still doing it in a larger of their own
• off chartering for a week in the Med
• not sailing at all

 

[Ubergeekian]

Thats a great idea... and these day boats are taking off in the states..

The Hinckley DS 42

I am not so sure how something like this would sell in the UK.. given the weather...

I want one. The Americans do the more beautiful minimalist yachts in the world.

Here's an interesting contrast: the original Frances 26 (still available in the US)

versus the Victoria Marine version

versus the Victoria 26 / 800

 

[Searush]

(snip)
versus the Victoria 26 / 800

Hey, that's a Westerly/ Macwester/ Snapdragon deck on a Colin Archer hull.

 

[Searush]

Isn't that effective the Ka's market point?

The big questions to me is "Are the people who used to cram Mum, Dad and two kids into a Corribee for a week...

• still doing it in a small boat of their own
• still doing it in a larger of their own
• off chartering for a week in the Med
• not sailing at all

Good question - but are we the right people to answer it? Why not try it as a poll & see what happens?

 

[Ubergeekian]

My question remains, what will happen when the existing suppply of (now 20-40 year old) "starter" boats diminishes due to natural wastage?

Bavaria or their successors will start making them cheaply.

 

[Poignard]

I want one. The Americans do the more beautiful minimalist yachts in the world.

Here's an interesting contrast: the original Frances 26 (still available in the US)

A foresail that can be reefed. I like that.

 

[Ubergeekian]

A foresail that can be reefed. I like that.

The working jib on my Jouster has two rows of reef points. Useful things, but when I'm single handed I tend to go straight to the storm jib, which is about the same as the double reefed working,

 

[Poignard]

The working jib on my Jouster has two rows of reef points. Useful things, but when I'm single handed I tend to go straight to the storm jib, which is about the same as the double reefed working,

That's interesting.

I have no experience of reefed foresails at all but I am seriously considering replacing my furler with hank-on sails when it dies (but being a Rotostay, it's taking a long time to die!), and I assumed that putting a reef in a foresail would be easier and quicker than changing down to a smaller sail but you obviously don't find it so.

How does your boat handle with a 'sausage' of rolled-up canvas at the bottom of the sail and do you have to change the position of the sheet leads when you have reefed it?

 

[Ubergeekian]

How does your boat handle with a 'sausage' of rolled-up canvas at the bottom of the sail and do you have to change the position of the sheet leads when you have reefed it?

It's a small boat (21') with, iirc, a 90 sq ft working jib so the sausage isn't terribly big. It's never caused any particular problems - though as I say I haven't used the reef points much. I didn't bother moving the sheeting point. Unlike roller reefing the points move the clew forward and down very slightly (rather than forward and up a lot) so the geometry doesn't change very much.

Having the points added cost something like twenty quid a row when the sail was made - twenty years ago - and seemed well worth it.

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

re moon dancer

I agree with moon dancer there is little demand from family sailors for a yacht that we have to cram into.

I sailed dinghys and on other peoples yachts for 20 years before buying a yacht

I would advocate that the Wayfarer or a similar cruising dinghy is one of the best starter boats you can buy cause it teaches you to sail.

Mine cost £500 plus some TLC and being wooden also let me do the maintenance things as well.

There were lots of people who joined the sailing club to try sailing in a safe environment.

sailing clubs are much more accessible in Scotland.

Best thing is you learn to sail properly, we were on a 15 mile long loch so plenty of space.

You can travel with your dinghy and try the sea etc. and take it on Holiday etc.

You can then do charter holidays, other people's yachts etc and decide whether your into yachts or not.

When you then buy a yacht, a lot of people then jump straight into a bigger yacht cause they want the space and because the're a bit older and can afford it.

I have a lot of respect for those younger yachtmen who buy a small yacht etc but i don't think they are in a position to fork out £25k on a new 20 odd footer and would probably buy a second hand bigger yacht if they have any ambitions to sail further.

There were selling Bav 30s for £40 grand a few years ago. These feed teh second hand market.

Unless your buying a class yacht to go racing or something, can't see the typical family buying smaller than that in the new boat market. You pay too much relative to the length.

If you're buying new then £10k gets you a wayfarer or topper sport or something

The hawk 20 fits in just above that and makes sense. I've sailed them and they're great

£10k also buys you a good Contessa 26 or something. I guess buying a new 20 foot real yacht just doesn't make sense to a lot of people anymore.

The best starter yachts are dinghys or cheap second hand yachts thats why no one sells new small starter yachts anymore