Starter Yachts

[Searush]

That thread about the exclusivity of sailing got me thinking a bit. I have just been reading the Maurice Griffith's paperback "Sailing on a small income" (price 2/6d) published in 1959. After the war there were plenty of cheap old boats plus lots of ex-ship's lifeboat conversions & one could get afloat for about £200 (about 6 month's salary?). In the 60's & 70's we had GRP & loads of small 19-25' starter boats being built plus profesional & self-build ply kits and the market grew like mad.

Today a new "starter" boat size is said to be 30-36' and costs about £50k - at least 2x average salary. Ok there are plenty of older boats out there that can be bought from under £1k up to £13k (about half of average salary). But those boats are not being replaced by new ones & the older boats are often being run on a shoe-string & getting slowly worse & worse. OK, people like Nathan & Sixpence are rescueing some, but look around the low end moorings, there are fewer & fewer around.

So, here's the crux, where will the next lot of cheap genuine starter boats come from for the everyman sailor?

 

[Kelpie]

What's going to happen to the older GRP boats to make them go away?

You might also consider market forces.... it could be that the people splashing out on brand new boats today are simply storing up a big fall, as those looking for a used boat won't necessarily have any more money to spend.

 

[photodog]

So, here's the crux, where will the next lot of cheap genuine starter boats come from for the everyman sailor?

Well, we have to think about what Cheap is... as you say a modernish (ie 1998-2003) 32 footer from a production builder will cost around 40-45k or so....

Mine cost 40k 5 yeas ago... and I expect to be able to sell it on for roughly the same in 5 years time...

10 years from now that same boat will probably be 35-40 depending on its exact condition... but that is a LOT less than the 40k in real terms that I paid for it...

Probably be around 25k in real terms... and in 10 years time the average salary in the uk will prbably be around 45-50k... so 6 months salary.

Same as 1959..

The average starter yacht will be all those 30 foot production boats which we now see kickinng around which we think of as expensive... but in 15 years will be in real terms a lot cheaper... and given that they are cranking them out by the thousands... I doubt there will be a shortage. (The big builders are making a lot more boats now than 25 years ago. During the entire run of the Nicholson 32, spanning 1963-81... 700 were built. Bavaria bashes out 3000 (??) boats per year.)

 

[Searush]

What's going to happen to the older GRP boats to make them go away?
(snip)

As I said, they get neglected & undermaintained as they are owned by people with limited means or time to keep them safe. They get strained & wrecked, they have minor collisions, fires etc. Engines, rigging & or sails need replacing. There is a steady reduction in numbers over time - there has to be. The cost of replacing an engine or rig etc can easily exceed the value of a boat.

Abandoned boats are being burned in boatyards & harbours every year.

I'm not sure that you are correct about the collapse of value in bigger boats, many of us would like to upgrade but already won't pay the price for a slightly newer, but less strong boat. I'm talking about the £5-15k market in 10 years. My Pentland was in that range when I bought it, but now commands £15-24k depending on condition & equipment.

 

[Slow_boat]

In the late 70's a rough rule of thumb was that a new boat would cost £1,000 per foot. The same boat second hand now would cost about the same. About £30,000 for a thirty footer, or twice the price of a house. The boat will probably sell for just a bit less than that now, while the house will be ten time the price it was.

In the mid 70's, £3,500pa was a reasonable salary. A bit more than one tenth the price of the 30 footer. The same kind of salary now is about ten times that. However, the same kind of 30 footer now would only cost three times that salary. The boat is now less than the price of a house.

The comparative price of boats has actually fallen drastically since the '70s. Mind you, the comparative price of just about anything apart from houses and fuel is a lot less than in the '70s.

 

[lw395]

My Starter Yacht was an Impala 28.
Cost me about £13k in 1996. Sold her for about £11k needing a little work in 2000.
A very capable and reasonably quick boat, got us to France and Cornwall several times.
I think that's pretty affordable and she's still going strong.
The limiting factor is finding a cheap mooring, which is why Impalas are almost extinct in the Solent. Cheap credit means the capital cost of a yacht is easily covered compared to a marina berth, so no one will pay the going rate to get a slot in Haslar then put a £20k boat in it.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Today a new "starter" boat size is said to be 30-36' and costs about £50k - at least 2x average salary.

That is a delusion of the yachting press, I think. That may be the first big market in new boats, but I suspect that many of these are not starter boats.

Ok there are plenty of older boats out there that can be bought from under £1k up to £13k (about half of average salary). But those boats are not being replaced by new ones & the older boats are often being run on a shoe-string & getting slowly worse & worse. OK, people like Nathan & Sixpence are rescueing some, but look around the low end moorings, there are fewer & fewer around.

To some extent I think this is also a delusion of the press. Very few marinas have many small, cheap boats in them - but that's a simple matter of economics. Keeping my Jouster in a Clyde marina would cost more than her value per annum, and the same goes for many other smaller boats: the Hunter 19s, Corribees, Anderson 22s and so on of this world. They migrate to less visible, cheaper places - in my neck of the woods the three main harbours - Kippford, Kirkcudbright and Whithorn - all have a fair number of small yachts in regular use. I get the impression, by the way, that you are not a great marina fan, so I'm not suggesting that you are making this error.

The plywood boats of the 60s and 70s seem to have disappeared almost entirely. I can't remember when I last saw a Robert Tucker design - Silhouette, Ballerina, whatever - afloat. That's probably a combination of age, poor maintenance and the ready availability of similar GRP boats cheap. It happens in other fields too - with a few exceptions wooden gliders are now dirt cheap or free because there are so many secondhand GRP ones on the market.

So, here's the crux, where will the next lot of cheap genuine starter boats come from for the everyman sailor?

Another important factor is the HUGE growth in chartering, flotillas and the like. Thirty years ago the economical way into sailing was to buy a Silhouette - now the economical way in is to do a couple of weeks in the Aegean. Until air travel becomes prohibitively expensive, that will probably continue.

So there we are. The next lot of cheap starter boats will be the last lot of GRP boats, charter fleets - and the small but steady dribble of small sailing boats.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I have real doubts about average income figures, not least because I suspect they include a whole lot of people working part time and maybe the unemployed. Anyone know what makes up the figure?

Incidentally, have a look at wiki economics - there are some fascinating figures on there. How, for example, does Irish income per head exceed Irish GDP per head?

Anyway, I thought Searush's reminiscences(?) were fascinating but smacked of the "things were different in my day, lad" as indeed they were. We are financially much better off nowadays and I would bet a pound to a pinch of pig sh*t that more people can afford a small boat now than could post WW2. Difficulty is parking it as shown by the congestion in the ports and marinas. The problem these days isnt so much the cost of the boat, which you will substantially get back on resale as the mooring costs for it.

Sailing is predominantly a middle class hobby and I dont see that changing. Your average middle class professional has a family income well above the £30k national average because one thing that has changed since Searush's youth is that most women now work.

What has also changed is the attitude to sailing. Both my kids sail but they dont have boats, arent interested in mine and happily charter along with their mates when they want a holiday. They buy their pleasure when they want it and walk away when they dont. They do the same with skiing, or motor sport or the other pastimes they indulge. Like most young people they are cash rich and time poor - the reverse of what Searush and I were when young.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Incidentally, have a look at wiki economics - there are some fascinating figures on there. How, for example, does Irish income per head exceed Irish GDP per head?

Income calculated only for working people, GDP per head for the whole population?

What has also changed is the attitude to sailing. Both my kids sail but they dont have boats, arent interested in mine and happily charter along with their mates when they want a holiday.

I wonder if this is a side effect of more anonymous boat designs as well as cheap air travel? Perhaps there is less joy of ownership when boat designs are rather less quirky and boats less personalised. Or have I got the chicken and egg the wrong way round?

There is no doubt that chartering is the financially sensible way to do it for almost all leisure sailors. A thousand quid will buy your share of a month in something big, somewhere nice ... or cover a year's ownership costs for a Corribee.

 

[Kawasaki]

Starter Mobos!

Interesting follow on thread Searush.
From the Mobo side of things.
I have noticed in the last 5 years particularly, the increase in Starter Mobos about the Place.
The Peche Promenade (French Jobbies) 17/20 footers.
Great starter boats and must be affordable there are so many about.
Cannot the same builders make a similar Raggie Whatsit?
Or would they not sell?

I would also add that 50% of peeps buying these type of Mobos are Newcomers.
I reckon.

Are We saying there is no 20 ft ish Yacht on the Market at 'sensible' money (whatever that may be) to attract Newbies and others that want a new boat?

I suppose most peeps want a Yacht at least 30ft for obvious reasons
I know if I went 'Raggie' (oh my gawd) I would probably buy an older boat to aquire the size I wanted.

Have I answered My own Question?

Blimey!
Mental note to Oneself again--- 'Do not hang about in Scuttlebut too long'

 

[V1701]

... and in 10 years time the average salary in the uk will prbably be around 45-50k...

Can't see that happening...

 

[photodog]

Can't see that happening...

i agree.. not at the rate I'm going...

 

[Searush]

That's a good point Kwaka, I suppose the Peche Prom is effectively replacing the old micro-plus 16-19' mini-cruisers? But sail boat makers aren't doing that.

The cost per foot of a small boat is higher than that of a big one. Plus the 36 footers carry a lot of extras that all attract a premium. Yards prefer to make big boats - the profit margins are much higher. Consequently there are very few 19-30' new yachts available.

Still plenty in the second-hand market, but the stock is not being renewed & will, albeit slowly, diminish. I suppose Drascombes are the only ones still in production (or are they?) and they a bloomin' pricey for what they are. Great little trailer sailers, if a little heavy, but very limited accomodation.
http://www.drascombe.org.uk/drascombe drifter 22.htm

And it costs around £30k for a new 22footer. I could get 2 decent but old 30footers for that price.

Any other small yachts still being made?

Edit: just checked Hunter yachts, under 25' are only made as daysailers. 25-27 are "micro-cruisers". This is clearly a consequence of H&S categories - little boats are not perceived as "safe". They have obviously not heard of Sjo-Agg & her sisters doing Atlantic crossings.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Still plenty in the second-hand market, but the stock is not being renewed & will, albeit slowly, diminish. I suppose Drascombes are the only ones still in production (or are they?) and they a bloomin' pricey for what they are. Great little trailer sailers, if a little heavy, but very limited accomodation.
http://www.drascombe.org.uk/drascombe drifter 22.htm

And it costs around £30k for a new 22footer. I could get 2 decent but old 30footers for that price.

Any other small yachts still being made?

Cornish Crabbers? 17, 19, 22 and 24 feet.

Honor Marine? "Devon" luggers and Longboats, which seem near identical to Drascombes.

Hawk 20 Cabin boat? I know someone with one - she loves it.

Bavaria? I thought I saw a 22 or 24 footer on their stand at ExCel, but can't confirm this via Google, so I may have been dreaming.

You're dead right about the price, though, or even a bit on the low side A new Cornish Crabber 22 comes in at £57,750 and a 24 starts at a gobsmacking £69,950.

 

[Saguday]

Our little Leisure 23SL is a classic starter boat and can be had for between £8-9k

She's 29 years old and I reckon will still be a classic starter boat in another 29 years time, for about £8-9k.

 

[fergie_mac66]

20-25 footers

I think that as the numbers of old 20-25 footers (starter boats ) decrease then eventually a market hole will appear which will be filled by somebody .
Possibly, a new business
At 60 thousand for a crabber (do they have self draining cockpits ?) I can see a market opening up for small pocket wooden cruisers, albeit in small numbers.
The big sticking point is all the H&S legi slay sion (slaying businesses!). It is H&S costs that must put up the cost of new boats.

 

[Searush]

Our little Leisure 23SL is a classic starter boat and can be had for between £8-9k

She's 29 years old and I reckon will still be a classic starter boat in another 29 years time, for about £8-9k.

Fine, if she doesn't catch fire or ground fatally - that's why I was enquiring about NEW models. My own boat is 37yo & will last another 37 if i have anything to do with it - but my healthy may fail, my income shrink & maintenance can get beyond me. The next owner may run her into the ground - who knows, but they are not getting younger are they?

 

[Seagreen]

Where have all the kit boats gone?

Back 'when I was a lad', Dad and I went from a wooden Enterprise to a Silhouette, and thence to a Virgo Voyager. I now enslave myself to very old gaff yawl.

However, when younger, I was aware there were many small plywood home build options available. Indeed, the Virgo was a part-built boat, though GRP.

Has the RCD killed off the home build option, or are people too wary of getting into the vast task of building their own boat in the back garden or garage? The Selway Fisher plans catalogue (again, on my shelf) has loads of simple designs. I also think the supply of Corribees will runn out eventually.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Has the RCD killed off the home build option, or are people too wary of getting into the vast task of building their own boat in the back garden or garage? The Selway Fisher plans catalogue (again, on my shelf) has loads of simple designs. I also think the supply of Corribees will runn out eventually.

Blaxton Boats will sell you various classic hulls (Hurley 22, Verl 790 ...) for home completion. Mind you, a quick google suggests that a respectable second hand H22 is around six grand.

I wonder what happened to the Corribee moulds? Gorgeous boats, although to my mind the mast would look better stepped a foot or so further aft. It looks fine for the junk rig, though.

 

[webcraft]

Vega

.
They made 3,450 Albin Vegas and the great majority are still afloat. They are going to be available for a while, with plenty always around for four figures rather than five - not only do they sail well but you also have a pocket ocean cruiser as well if you are that way inclined.

- W