Poignard
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that.
Starter Yachts
- Thread starter Searush
- Start date
Thanks for that.
prv
Well-Known Member
I agree - but SeaRush's point is that the supply of "cheap secondhand yachts" will eventually dry up with no-one building "new small starter yachts" to one day become the cheap second-hand ones.
Pete
David_Jersey
Well-Known Member
I think the answer is............all of that
Just means that less of 1).On the Ford Escort / Ka analogy I would argue that the Ka is not the direct replacement for the Escort sized small family car, it's the Focus (a million percent better, but identikit in look) And that's leaving aside an MPV or even a 4x4 is seen by many nowadays as a family sized car........whereas back in the 70's those would not have even been available options.
BTW I had a MK1 Escort. Two Door. and Yellow
........I stiill love the look of them, but I probably would never buy a new one..........EuanMcKenzie
Well-Known Member
re supply of cheap secondhand yachts
I don't think the supply of cheap secondhand yachts will dry up at all. They will just be slightly bigger - the price will reflect the market place and you will get a bigger better one for your money like you do now with cars.
I do predict the simpler ones will continue to be the more sought after also just like cars its the bespoke parts and fancy electronics that will be expensive to replace.
Can't see there being a second hand market for the silly yacht with the tilting rig for that reason. It is definately the citroen of the yachting world.
Just to throw muck at my argument - The H boat is a nice good looking simple yacht still produced and I quite fancy one but it doesn't work for me as a cruising boat.
I don't think the supply of cheap secondhand yachts will dry up at all. They will just be slightly bigger - the price will reflect the market place and you will get a bigger better one for your money like you do now with cars.
I do predict the simpler ones will continue to be the more sought after also just like cars its the bespoke parts and fancy electronics that will be expensive to replace.
Can't see there being a second hand market for the silly yacht with the tilting rig for that reason. It is definately the citroen of the yachting world.
Just to throw muck at my argument - The H boat is a nice good looking simple yacht still produced and I quite fancy one but it doesn't work for me as a cruising boat.
Madhatter
Well-Known Member
So bringing over used ones might be the answer ?!!
A starter boat at £10 Grand !!!, there are hundreds of potential starter sailors but £10 g would be out of the question.
Also the perception of sailing ( to some )is of affluent yuppies posing on big yachts.
Costs of sailing equipment also seem to be inflated ,put the word "marine " in front of anything and the price goes up.
" journalists and industry professionals" maybe out of touch with "pre-sailing people"
These are just my observations and maybe incorrect
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I've been giving this some thought. Here are some reflections - apologies for repetitions and/or cross over.
I don't think people ever started in small boats. I think they started in cheap boats, and "small" was simply the easiest way to get "cheap". Cheap because (a) newcomers to any hobby are unlikely to devote a huge amount of cash to it until they are sure and because (b) younger people generally have less spare money than older people
Hence people bought the Leisure 17, decided they liked sailing, moved up to the Corribee a few years later and then, with a huge push, made it to Westerly Centaur as the children reached teenage and demanded a wee bit more privacy.
Nowadays beginners still want cheap, but small is no longer automatically cheap. The marina life is seductive, but costs a bomb. Why buy the Corribee for £5k when you only have to spend £10k Centaur and the running costs - including that 8m minimum - are almost the same.
For that matter, why buy a boat at all? Unless you enjoy the thrill of ownership and maintenance - as many of us do - it's only a means to the end of sailing. The charter market has exploded beyond all recognition over the past twenty years - largely, I suspect, as mass produced boats have transformed the economics.
Cornish Cruising (first price list I found) will do you a Centaur for a piddly £700 pw during the high season or a Bavaria 36 for £1135. Keeping a Corribee in Largs Yacht Haven (nearest nice marina to me) would cost £2.3k pa and a Centaur would be a cool £3.4k pa. Those of you in the south could, I guess, increase that by 50% or so. Add on maintenance, replacement, insurance and so on and it really, really doesn't make sense to think about buying a boat until you're doing a month or more per annum on board.
I think I have just convinced myself that I'm clinically insane to have bought a new boat (to me) boat. Oops. But I digress.
My point, such as it is, is that small boats are unnecessary now. It's possible to indulge a starter-sized interest in sailing for a modest amount by chartering: the decision to buy small has to be driven by precisely the same irrational motives which prompt some of us to buy bigger (Hey, 26' feels big to me. I started in the 70s).
So, having thought about it, I don't think there will be a significant market for small starter boats again - unless something happens to make big starter boats unaffordable.
rwoofer
Well-Known Member
Some interesting french starter boats
Just discovered this manufacturer whose range goes from 20ft to 28ft
http://www.venetes.fr/FR/boats/liste_voilier.htm
Modern plywood epoxy with good performance it seems.
Just discovered this manufacturer whose range goes from 20ft to 28ft
http://www.venetes.fr/FR/boats/liste_voilier.htm
Modern plywood epoxy with good performance it seems.
Searush
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Ubergeekian nicely argued &, I think, correct. We have all been thinking starter = small, but it isn't, it is starter=cheap (which was small)
I agree with your basic "owning vs charter" sums too, that was how I justified my first boat. If anyone else is looking ate the sums, don't forget to add the cost of any purchase loan. Interesting how the balance hs changed. I have owned my current boat for around 15 years and don't feel the need to justify it any more. After all, it's only money isn't it?
Bugger I think you just killed a great thread!
I agree with your basic "owning vs charter" sums too, that was how I justified my first boat. If anyone else is looking ate the sums, don't forget to add the cost of any purchase loan. Interesting how the balance hs changed. I have owned my current boat for around 15 years and don't feel the need to justify it any more. After all, it's only money isn't it?
Bugger I think you just killed a great thread!
Madhatter
Well-Known Member
Ubergeekian
While I might agree with some of the points you made I can only reflect on my own position: over 60,no long term plans due to impending health problems, not well off, want's to sail,do not want to rely on other people to enable to go out sailing (single handed sailing) , bought a largish boat when I could afford it -but due to business commitments only went out once then damaged it (trying to move it on my own) sold it ( but the dream kept nagging away).
NOW: decided to buy a boat suitable for my particular needs ( S/H sailing/cost/running costs/sensible ),decided not to get a boat that needed a marina/mooring(trailer-able).
Achieved : got boat,got some safety equipment/navigating/tender/radio/clothing/built trailer (over spec in case I get a bigger boat),joined local sailing club who have a yard space included in the annual fee (£40.00 PA).Total cost £1200.00 that I struggled to find but managed ( still have a mortgage and can only work short hours ).In short anything over 21 ft would be a problem ( unless anybody can recommend a trail-able one bigger ?).
Can't wait to get out there in the spring!!!!
While I might agree with some of the points you made I can only reflect on my own position: over 60,no long term plans due to impending health problems, not well off, want's to sail,do not want to rely on other people to enable to go out sailing (single handed sailing) , bought a largish boat when I could afford it -but due to business commitments only went out once then damaged it (trying to move it on my own) sold it ( but the dream kept nagging away).
NOW: decided to buy a boat suitable for my particular needs ( S/H sailing/cost/running costs/sensible ),decided not to get a boat that needed a marina/mooring(trailer-able).
Achieved : got boat,got some safety equipment/navigating/tender/radio/clothing/built trailer (over spec in case I get a bigger boat),joined local sailing club who have a yard space included in the annual fee (£40.00 PA).Total cost £1200.00 that I struggled to find but managed ( still have a mortgage and can only work short hours ).In short anything over 21 ft would be a problem ( unless anybody can recommend a trail-able one bigger ?).
Can't wait to get out there in the spring!!!!
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Tommyrot
Well-Known Member
fergie_mac66
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Ubergeekian nicely argued &, I think, correct. We have all been thinking starter = small, but it isn't, it is starter=cheap (which was small)
I agree with your basic "owning vs charter" sums too, that was how I justified my first boat. If anyone else is looking ate the sums, don't forget to add the cost of any purchase loan. Interesting how the balance hs changed. I have owned my current boat for around 15 years and don't feel the need to justify it any more. After all, it's only money isn't it?
Bugger I think you just killed a great thread!
starter= cheap = small =probably true.
It could still depends on the skill level of the person buying though .
Some body new to sailing might go out on a 40 footer with a group for the experience ,decide they like it after 1st time and immediately want to buy a boat ,but with no skill level , most at that point would not go to buy a 40 foot Yacht(sail) because of confidence issues but would look to learn on smaller boat. That might not hold true for a Mobo. I could see someone buying a 30 to 40 cruiser on inland/ rivers/broads to start with intention of transferring or seek to extend range to the sea as skills level increases.
Owning vs charter I understand the comparison but I have never wanted to charter. My primary drive has always been the ability to go as and when, for week, day,night or month . To just say wake up early morning and say I think I'll go for the day/weekend and charter a boat ten or twelve times a year couldn't work for most people in addition to a 2/3 week summer break. To me chartering is more of a "OMG I'm sick of this rain lets go and charter for a week in the sun "
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
Of course. I was being very general indeed. It might even be that with experience and commitment costs can come down significantly - less need to pay others to do things, less time pressure so less need for the convenience of a marina and so on.
I'm just now making the step up from a boat which costs me practically nothing to run (Westerly Jouster, paid for 15 years ago, council marina @ £75/m pa) to one which represents a significant investment. If that doesn't work out - if the fun per pound plummets - then I shall be scampering back to the safety of small and cheap!
Searush
Well-Known Member
How does that work then?
Well, it doesn't does it, but it is a common perception.
Madhatter
Well-Known Member
macsail
New Member
I want one
But I was thinking something nearer the Macgregor 26
..
It's my precious and it has style: I'm going to trailer it to Florida from Canada (2,700kilometers 1 way) and cross the gulf stream to spend a few weeks in the Bahamas on the 1rst of march...
and spirit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSV1NpFn8Uc
Québec 1
David_Jersey
Well-Known Member
Style - it's a question of taste
But despite my earlier comments, I do like the concept - in the right circumstances (like travelling from Canada to the Bahamas
) I wouldn't automatically say no. Different boats for different folks
fergie_mac66
Well-Known Member
prv
Well-Known Member
Doesn't apply. At least in this part of the world, you'd be mad to keep either of them in a marina, since the annual fee would be the capital cost of the Corribee in one year or the Centaur in two.
I'd been saving for a few years and was maybe 1/3rd of the way to that "starter boat" when my Dad suddenly had the urge and we got Kindred Spirit between us. So I was looking for cheap moorings for whatever cheap boat I eventually ended up with - Crown Estate waiting lists, cheap swinging moorings up rivers, and "everyman" budget sailing clubs - certainly not any kind of marina.
Pete
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I agree with every word you wrote. I was specifically addressing those who want the marina lifestyle, which is clearly quite a lot of people. For them the only two sensible options are "charter" or "buy something big" because, as you say, the running costs in a marina swamp the capital costs for anything much less than 8m or so.
Bosun Higgs
N/A
It's not wrong Searush - as many studies have shown. That of course assumes we are comparing like with like and not a flimsy big boat with a tank like little boat.
At the extreme, why does a tanker with an AVS of maybe 40degrees get through the sort of weather than would sink most yachts? Because the energy transfer during wave impact ( and it that rather than sail windage which capsizes yachts) is much less in proportion to the inertia of the boat. But taking far less extreme examples, the safety criteria required for smaller boats to get the same safety rating are much tighter than they are for larger boats. Have a look at radford
You might find this tech report from the US coastguard an interesting read. USCG report
Sure there are other factors that make some designs better than others. But I'd still rather face an open sea gale in a 40ft Bav than I would in (say) a Sadler 29 even though the latter is a particularly well designed sea boat. Size matters
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