Start-line Rules (and other racing matters).

[Keen_Ed]

TBH - you should only take penalty turns for fouling another vessel if they shout/call Protest at you ... (and only then if you believe you've fouled them)

BASIC PRINCIPLE
SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.

If you know you've broken a rule, you should take a penalty. If there's an incident, and you don't think you've broken a rule, then a protest committee are the people to make a judgement.

 

[AMCD300]

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

I was dinghy racing here in Naples the other weeked when I fell foul of this one. Another dinghy was leeward of me and we were both racing towards a turning mark on a stbd tack. He kept forcing me to harden up by steering a wider line in to the turn than I wanted. I kept inching back towards him hoping he would bear away however, as expected, he turned onto me and called a foul when we nudged each other. That's racing for you...

 

[fireball]

I disagree.
You know you were in the wrong, take turns.
Any other boat observing the incident could protest you.
Even if you are not sure you are in the wrong, take a penalty and you are covered.

It's a self policiing sport, if you don't take penalties you know you deserve, then you can't really complain if others flout the rules.

No, you should if you've genuinely fouled them. However, many situations are ambiguous.

If you know you've broken a rule, you should take a penalty. If there's an incident, and you don't think you've broken a rule, then a protest committee are the people to make a judgement.

Yes - if you know you've broken a rule then take the penalty - but many situations are - as said - ambiguous - so unless you know that you've broken a rule then I wouldn't take the turn.

In Port/Starboard "incidents" the port hand boat may not recognise if the RoW vessel has had to take avoiding action - and indeed they may not - therefore the only way you can be sure is to acknowledge the Protest from the other vessel. Same with Windward/Leeward ...
TBH, IME it's unusual for a 3rd party to protest - but if they do then they need to prove a rule has broken - so if its a marginal call then it's going to be tricky to do so.

In friendly club racing you can be more relaxed in when someone has "fouled" another - but do try to ensure your racing is in Gentlemanly fashion!

 

[Robert Wilson]

Your many kind and sagacious comments have more than answered my questions. Thank you all.
Apart from being unsure of the rules (which I now am) I fully concur that racing (unless possiblyfor megabucks, America's Cup etc etc) is a sport for gentlemen and should be conducted so in a spirit of sportsmanship yet properness. There is no room for cads and scoundrels on the water!!

I would love to see this post go on and on, I find the various opinions and positions fascinating and often humorous. So please, keep it rolling for as long as you all like.

Above all, enjoy your sailing.

 

[awol]

While it may feel a tad premeditated, as well as understanding the rules, do have a protest flag easily available for all most instant display. If you do end up in the protest room, the easiest way for the committee to deal with the matter is to disallow the protest for not hailing "protest" and displaying a red flag "conspicuously", both "at the first reasonable opportunity". This means instant decision on the water and you don't have time to discuss whether to protest or not with the crew but you don't have to go through with the protest if you change your mind - just lower the flag.
I'm afraid that following a marginal guilty incident with another boat I would wait for the shout and the flag before doing turns. Hitting marks or gross violations, I would do the turns without waiting for the call.

 

[lw395]

Your many kind and sagacious comments have more than answered my questions. Thank you all.
Apart from being unsure of the rules (which I now am) ......

If you're sure of the rules after a couple of hours on here, you're learning faster than me. I've been racing for 10 years and there are still details that I don't fully understand.
But I like to keep a few steps ahead of the cowboys in my club.

 

[fireball]

If you're sure of the rules after a couple of hours on here, you're learning faster than me. I've been racing for 10 years and there are still details that I don't fully understand.
But I like to keep a few steps ahead of the cowboys in my club.

I've been racing for 30 and I still don't know them all ... mainly because we don't often get into the situations that call for them to be questioned ...

 

[dt4134]

While it may feel a tad premeditated, as well as understanding the rules, do have a protest flag easily available for all most instant display.

Tie the red flag onto the backstay before the race. Many people who do this then furl it up with an overhand knot, but that still takes a little while to deploy. My preferred method is to bunch it up and tie a highwayman's hitch around it, so it is ready for instant deployment.

 

[awol]

Your many kind and sagacious comments have more than answered my questions. Thank you all.
Apart from being unsure of the rules (which I now am) I fully concur that racing (unless possiblyfor megabucks, America's Cup etc etc) is a sport for gentlemen and should be conducted so in a spirit of sportsmanship yet properness. There is no room for cads and scoundrels on the water!!

May I recommend West Highland yachting Week to you. You would be in Class 8 where protests are frowned upon, almost as much as boorish or aggressive behaviour, with the ultimate sanction of exclusion from the class party at Tobermory and having to deal with the opprobrium of the ladies of the class - I know, I had the temerity to raise the red flag once - never again!

 

[Allan]

Your many kind and sagacious comments have more than answered my questions. Thank you all.

Above all, enjoy your sailing.

As the original question has been answered, could I add another question?
If a boat crosses the line early and turns to go behind again, do all the port/starboard and windward/leeward rules still apply? In particular, if the boat is on starboard would it have priority over port boats?
Allan

 

[fireball]

As the original question has been answered, could I add another question?
If a boat crosses the line early and turns to go behind again, do all the port/starboard and windward/leeward rules still apply? In particular, if the boat is on starboard would it have priority over port boats?
Allan

IIRC - a boat that is OCS (On Course Side) has NO RIGHTS over boats that have started correctly when returning to the line.

 

[Bobc]

IIRC - a boat that is OCS (On Course Side) has NO RIGHTS over boats that have started correctly when returning to the line.

Quite correct.

 

[awol]

As the original question has been answered, could I add another question?
If a boat crosses the line early and turns to go behind again, do all the port/starboard and windward/leeward rules still apply? In particular, if the boat is on starboard would it have priority over port boats?
Allan

21.1 A boat sailing towards the pre-start side of the starting line or one of
its extensions after her starting signal to start or to comply with rule
30.1 shall keep clear of a boat not doing so until she is completely on
the pre-start side.

 

[st599]

As the original question has been answered, could I add another question?
If a boat crosses the line early and turns to go behind again, do all the port/starboard and windward/leeward rules still apply? In particular, if the boat is on starboard would it have priority over port boats?
Allan

No, the boat that went early must avoid all boats that started correctly

 

[dt4134]

As the original question has been answered, could I add another question?
If a boat crosses the line early and turns to go behind again, do all the port/starboard and windward/leeward rules still apply? In particular, if the boat is on starboard would it have priority over port boats?
Allan

Until the gun goes you're not OCS so the starboard/port, windward/leeward rules apply, so yes you would have rights over a port tack boat providing of course you give her room to keep clear when altering course. Dip starting is a legitimate tactic although a good fleet would crowd you out.

Once the gun goes and you're OCS you have to keep clear whilst returning to restart.

Of course the above is assuming there are no starting penalty flags flying, such as "I" for round the ends.

 

[fireball]

No, the boat that went early must avoid all boats that started correctly

Not entirely correct - they must only avoid other boats when returning to the start line - if they carry on up the course they have the same rights as every other boat racing.

Just think of the consequences otherwise - at the start you force a competitor over the start line but are not early yourself- all fair so far - if they lost all rights then they would have to start avoiding you no matter what you did - so you could tack onto port and force them to tack too ...

Fortunately not so - they can carry on heading up the course - even with all their sails flapping and retain normal rights - once they head back to the start then they have to keep clear ..

 

[Keen_Ed]

Quite correct.

Wrong. You lose rights when you're returning to the pre-start side of the line. If you don't go back, you keep your rights, (but you'll be scored OCS).

 

[Keen_Ed]

In Port/Starboard "incidents" the port hand boat may not recognise if the RoW vessel has had to take avoiding action - and indeed they may not - therefore the only way you can be sure is to acknowledge the Protest from the other vessel. Same with Windward/Leeward ...

ISAF Case 50 gives guidance on he said/she said 10 protests.

"When a protest committee finds that in a port-starboard incident S did not change course and that there was not a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision on the part
of S, it should dismiss her protest. When the committee finds that S did change course and that there was reasonable doubt that P could have crossed ahead of S if S had not changed
course, then P should be disqualified."

Pushing a cross on port is a risky thing to do. "Keep clear" is more than "not hit".

 

[fireball]

Wrong. You lose rights when you're returning to the pre-start side of the line. If you don't go back, you keep your rights, (but you'll be scored OCS).

Oi ... BobC was quite "Correct" as my post did including the returning to the start line bit ...

 

[fireball]

ISAF Case 50 gives guidance on he said/she said 10 protests.

"When a protest committee finds that in a port-starboard incident S did not change course and that there was not a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision on the part
of S, it should dismiss her protest. When the committee finds that S did change course and that there was reasonable doubt that P could have crossed ahead of S if S had not changed
course, then P should be disqualified."

Pushing a cross on port is a risky thing to do. "Keep clear" is more than "not hit".

I have let a port boat cross in front of me - requiring a slight alteration on my part - there was no protest as it was not in my interest for the boat to tack - hence he was allowed through ... I believe I've had similar done for me ...
As the port tacker was "allowed" through by the RoW vessel surely they should not then be open to protest by a 3rd party ... ?