SSB/VHF licensing

I'm going to answer out of order here because this one is quicker to answer.

[ QUOTE ]
idiots in charge

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So you consider the RYA Assessor/examiners and the people who take the courses to be the "idiots in charge".

The equipment was produced by the manufacturers in answer to the concerns (of those above) that using a mouse to press buttons on an image of a radio on a PC screen does not prepare anyone for using a radio. This is why the LRC and above courses have always been taught on real radios.

Mike
 
Thanks for the kind words, I'll survive!

I'm worried that people are listening to and giving weight to the opinions of people who haven't even taken the LRC or higher. I have and it is relevant to the use of log range Maritime radio, I work in and use radio and I learnt loads of stuff such as how to use radio propogation to hit the right target.

To be brutally honest (and bear in mind the breadth of my customer experience here) most people who have only used Maritime VHF radio will not have a clue about how to correctly use MF/HF (SSB). Mainly because it isn't about choosing a channel and using it (even bambola was not aware of the fact that 2182 kHz is not the MF Distress frequency anymore), it is about which frequency, in which band, on which power, at what time of day and in which direction will reach the intended recipient. This is what the LRC etc teach and it is very hard to learn, remember and be able to apply radio propogation theory in a day.

If someone only wants to receive info on SSB, as I have said previously, you don't need the Ops cert for RX-only just the Ship Radio Licence.

Mike

Mike
 
So, if it's just about remembering lots of stuff, why not write it all down and keep it somewhere on a piece of paper? Seems a darn sight simpler than committing it all to 'fallible' memory.
Or am I being obtuse (as usual) ?
 
What time is it Eccles?

I couldn't agree more. The Admiralty publish two such documents aimed specifically at yachtsmen. But it's in some people's interest to have arcane laws and plenty of mumbo jumbo associated with what is - with modern equipment - a simple subject.
 
Re: What time is it Eccles?

[ QUOTE ]
But it's in some people's interest to have arcane laws and plenty of mumbo jumbo associated with what is - with modern equipment - a simple subject.

[/ QUOTE ]It's interesting to note that not once, in all these threads about SSB and the LRC, has anyone who has actually taken the LRC said that the course was a waste of time or that with hindsight they wish they'd saved their time and money.

Not once. Presumably, then, it isn't as easy as everyone who HASN'T taken the course and test makes out!
 
Re: What time is it Eccles?

People who've spent the better part of £400 on something are much inclined to think it worth while - multiply by a million and ask anyone in Whitehall. So I'll break your duck. I've done the LRC course and ended up wondering what all the fuss was about. Now the Ham exams... that's a different matter.
 
That's your second 'tad' in one thread! Your reputation and that of Icom are, as you well know, undiminished and irreproachable.
 
Re: What time is it Eccles?

[ QUOTE ]
People who've spent the better part of £400 on something are much inclined to think it worth while - multiply by a million and ask anyone in Whitehall. So I'll break your duck. I've done the LRC course and ended up wondering what all the fuss was about. Now the Ham exams... that's a different matter.

[/ QUOTE ]In the last few weeks we've had people expessing regrets about the thousands of pounds they'd spent on watermakers, generators and other expensive gear so that argument doesn't hold water in this forum.

I have a full amateur licence and I am an electronics engineer yet I did not find the LRC a walk-over simply because it is a totally different syllabus from the ham exams or pure electrical and electronic engineering. Sure, ham and electronics experience and knowledge helps but that is less than 10% of the content of the LRC. You could do the LRC by self-study (I nearly did it that way) but whether you go on a course or do it by self-study there is a lot to learn.

Furthermore, reading a lot of messages about radios and procedures in these forums shows that a large number are clueless about the legal requirements. It surely goes without saying that whether or not one approves of the rules and procedures, one ought to at least know them!

As you will no doubt confirm from your own studies for the LRC, much of the content is about selecting the right channel to transmit on, and what to say and do, to get the sort of assistance you require. If you gave an SSB set to someone experienced only to the VHF certificate level, and asked them ab initio to contact a coastguard for routine traffic, or make an urgency call, they would not stand any chance of getting through within an hour - if then (unless they had done a fair bit of study). In fact, I doubt whether they would manage to get a reply from anyone at all, let alone a coastguard.
 
Re: What time is it Eccles?

Well said. I was starting to despair at the tone of this thread, and the people who were having a go at Mike and Jon for putting into English terminology, what is already represented in the legalese of the licenses. If people want to have a go at the plain english versions of the legalese, and it was perfectly understandable, just go read the actual licences and supporting documentation.

It's not Mike and Jon's fault that there are problems with international requirements, or the implementation of the UK licensing, they just tell people what the position is legally. After that it's up to people to make their own minds up how they want to handle those requirements
 
Well, two paces forward anyone who's any the wiser.
It is/is not legal to possess a receiver capable of receiving Marine band transmissions although OfCon says anyone can legally own a scanner and Mike M's firm sells them.
We need experience to use SSB for Dx, agreed but I learned by transmitting not from the training I had in Signals. Sadly all you need is
1. A good earth (like the Atlantic Ocean for instance)
2. A properly loaded aerial which is favourably oriented to the other station's
3. The right time of day. This is an immensly complex and technical matter and involves listening from time to time until you hear good signals from around wherever you're trying to reach. Of course do NOT listen to privileged or private transmissions between Heads of State etc. all of which are invariably transmitted in clear.
We must obey all laws even the ridiculous ones. Hmmm.
We still don't know when a transmitter is a transmitter (but I'm willing to bet that if the microphone was removed and well hidden any inspector would look pretty damned silly in court)
My suggestion, for what it's worth
Register with the SSR and buy a British ship license if you want
Jointly buy a pedalo in Florida (the more of you the merrier) and buy one ten year ship radio license for it. You can then honestly answer 'Yes' to the bit in the individual radio operator's application that asks if you have a vessel in your name with a ship's license (there is no cross check but we must obey the law) and get your $50 license.
 
Re: What time is it Eccles?

------------if you gave an SSB set to someone experienced only to the VHF certificate level, and asked them ab initio to contact a coastguard for routine traffic, or make an urgency call, they would not stand any chance of getting through within an hour - if then (unless they had done a fair bit of study---------

Lemain hi,
Why would they want to contact the CC via SSB to make an urgency? But if they did there is a button with 2182 marked on it... press it.. see what happens..

MM is not quite right - a few land stations do monitor 2182 for distress traffic - UK coast guard and Monaco Radio although most of the world does not and 2182 is not an emergency frequency any more or any of the other higher old emergency frequencies.

This is purely anecdotal.

I have no electronics training and in those days was not very practical. Lots of years ago I needed to keep in touch with London on an almost daily baisis so in Gibraltar purchased an Icom SSB and tuner from Pumpkin Marine and installed them so I could talk to Portishead Radio from Eastern Med then later W Indies..... Within days I was regularly in contact with them, with no training what so ever but having read the little booklet that came with the set and the booklet from Portishead on frequencies!

If I can do it then anybody can! It is not rocket science!

SO that leaves the question - What is SSB for.
Answer: Communications between yachts for us - some merchant ships - some oil rigs - basically a maritime CB system!

So what is all the fuss over training about???

- If you want to use it you will quickly and easily discover the best frequencies v time of day night to use (there is software for that and it is not an absolute science anyway) 'Pete, try 12 mghz in no good come back here'

You have a system that even I can quickly learn to operate successfully all over the world - with no training whatsoever -Some one has decided this needs an operators license to operate because.... Why?
The safety issue has gone?
Mobile phones need licensed operators?
Sky TV remotes need licensed operators?
Wifi needs licensed operators?
It is all too silly for words. For those interested in pure radio the Ham set up is wonderful and a really interesting hobby but for those into communicating with other yachts you just dial in the frequency and call.... easy - at the basic level just like VHF............ And what else are you going to use it for??? CB radio...
 
Re: What time is it Eccles?

I must say I tend to agree. I did my MF/HF maritime licence some 25 yrs ago when all I really needed was a basic VHF licence. The easiest way in those days to get the VHF licence without travelling many miles to be tested was to get the tester to come to you at a college evening class which is what I did with about 20 others. However to justify running a course for 2 nights (2hrs each but including the exam) which is what the college wanted, the instructor chose to give us the choice of taking the MF/HF course and test as well which is what we all did and we all passed our written and practical test on the 2nd evening!

OK so things have changed since and the LRC now includes additional features like Navtex, EPIRBs and DSC but does that really take that long and cost that much? Amongst the changes since then are the demise of coast stations like Portishead and the demise of 2182 for emergency use, though as you said some CG stations do still listen. These changes have surely made things easier not more complicated and also there is less risk of incorrect operation interfering with emergency operations as was previously the case. I personally don't think anyone needs training to understand Navtex or Epirb operation, unless they are incapable of reading the supplied instructions. DSC operation is not rocket science either and is clearly explained in the manual on my DSC VHF. As far as DSC on MF/HF SSB is concerned there are NO type approved sets anyway, so why do we need a licence to use what we cannot buy!
 
Re: What time is it Eccles?

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As far as DSC on MF/HF SSB is concerned there are NO type approved sets anyway, so why do we need a licence to use what we cannot buy!

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Not true.
Barrett and Furuno both make a SSB with DSC that is approved.
We just don't at the mo!

Regards
 
Re: What time is it Eccles?

[ QUOTE ]
As far as DSC on MF/HF SSB is concerned there are NO type approved sets anyway, so why do we need a licence to use what we cannot buy!

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Just to correct this small point. There are EU approved sets (12V supply sets are either the JRC or Barrett units) the complaint is actually that they are very much more expensive (around £3,500.00) than the ICOM US non-approved one. However, as I understand it the EU ICOMs are pressuring ICOM Japan to fill this gap in the market.

Mike
 
Re: What time is it Eccles?

Imagine for a minute I'm the Japanese MD of ICOM, and I get pressure from my people in England to make an EU homologated radio. I ask for a few figures. How much will it cost to develop? And how much to get the little CE sticker on it? Hm. So how many of those 802's are we selling via the States and Jersey and Gibraltar? Nah. I think we'll stick as we are. Let them sort out their own muddle. Anyone who is really keen on following Ofcom's diktats word for word can go and buy one of those £3,500 rigs from Australia.
 
What time is it Eccles? Goon but not forgotten

I'm replying to myself here, but I thought any foreigners - or very young readers - might not get the Eccles reference.
It goes something like this

What time is it Eccles?
Hang on, I've got it written down on a piece of paper... it's half past eight
Where did you get that?
I asked a man the time this morning and he wrote it down for me.
So what do you do if someone asks you the time and it's not half past eight?
I don't show it to them.
Let me have a listen to that bit of paper.
Rustle rustle
Ere... you've bin done. This bit of paper ain't goin'

Remind you of any rules?
 
Re: What time is it Eccles?

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine for a minute I'm the Japanese MD of ICOM, and I get pressure from my people in England to make an EU homologated radio. I ask for a few figures. How much will it cost to develop? And how much to get the little CE sticker on it? Hm. So how many of those 802's are we selling via the States and Jersey and Gibraltar? Nah. I think we'll stick as we are. Let them sort out their own muddle. Anyone who is really keen on following Ofcom's diktats word for word can go and buy one of those £3,500 rigs from Australia.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well all I can say is its a good job your not and Mr Inoue (the head man at Icom Inc. ICOM comes from Inoue Communications) does not think that way!

It has taken time due to other reason that I will NOT go into on a public forum.
It will happen, there will be an EU SSB with DSC from Icom.
Time scales not confirmed but we have been told yes.

Regards
 
Re: What time is it Eccles? Goon but not forgotten

[ QUOTE ]
I'm replying to myself here, but I thought any foreigners - or very young readers - might not get the Eccles reference.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is it me?
I am a huge Goons fan but have to say I must be missing something here.

Care to enlighten us or just me?

Regards
 
Re: What time is it Eccles?

[ QUOTE ]
Also the new Icom set is available in Gibraltar and presumably the Channel Islands today - or you can have West Marine in the USA ship it to you - pay the import duty vat and end up with the set at a cheaper price than Jon can sell it for!

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Well I would not sell you one anyway but having just done some research.

Price for the M802 from West is £1117.01 you then need to add Duty, delivery etc.
Sorry to say I am not sure what that would be.

MES in Bristol offer the M802 (FOR EXPORT ONLY) at £1449.95

This is an average UK price.

Regards
 
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