SSB again

[Andrew_B]

I'm still a little confused about which SSB I should be looking at.
Are marine bands only received on marine SSBs or are they just a small bunch of frequencies that are included on Ham radios?
The model I have looked at is a Yaesu which has a range up to 30Mghzt with no gaps and is under half the price of the cheapest Icom.
Are ham radios suitable for use on board or not?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[snowleopard]

icom ssb's and ham sets have software that blocks you from transmitting on non-approved frequencies. i believe it is possible to remove the block if you know what you're about.

if you do enable ham band transmission, bear in mind that no-one will talk to you unless you have a ham callsign.

the latest icom ssb has vhf & dsc inluded so the price isn't quite so daunting.

 

[Andrew_B]

Re: Thanks for info

Obviously I need to take the HF radio course before I buy a set.
It just seemed a bit odd that some HF transceivers appear to be capable of alot more for a lot less.
Could it be that the radios made for the marine market cost more but other sets are perfectly suitable for less?
Surely if the Ham sets are capable of receiving and transmitting on the marine bands as well as others then this is the case.
I already have an Icom VHF with DSC that I bought in the US for half the UK price so this function isnt needed on the HF radio I buy.

Thanks for info

Andrew

 

[Roberto]

No problems with listening. Marine hf frequencies are around MHz 4, 6, 8, 12 up to 25/26, so if you have a general receiver 0.3-30MHz (like a opened up ham rig) you can listen to marine bands, as well as amateur and broadcasting frequencies.

A bit more complex if you want to transmit.

To transmit in the marine bands you must
1. have a marine station licence: to get it equipment must be type approved for marine use, most ham rigs are not so they cannot be included in the licence. Technically though, transmission can absolutely be done with such sets, and it is done.
2.As most marine bands are duplex channels (you receive on one frequency and trasmit on another one), you need a radio capable of split frequency operation, and many ham sets are.

As it has been said, if you do not have an amateur callsign no radio amateur will talk to you (not that they are nasty, they might lose their licence if they do).

rob, m0ita

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: Thanks for info

I've just been struggling through all this too, Andrew. I think you'll find the problem is that most Marine SSB is duplex and all ham is simplex. So then you'd be left with the problem of tuning a ham rig to two frequencies on two oscillators (presuming it has two oscillators - they don't all have) and switching between them to send and receive on marine frequencies. Marine SSB sets will do this automatically for you. Also the accuracy of tuning required for marine SSB is much greater than for a ham rig.
On the other hand, marine ssb sets in the EU usually have a diode blocking transmissions on ham frequencies. Of course you can listen, but unless you have a ham license, as someone pointed out, broadcasting isn't an option. ICOM 802 is available in the US and covers marine ssb and most ham frquencies with no diode blocking. But you're not allowed to import it to the EU and you wouldn't do anything like that, would you? You can find it for about $1800 street price in the US via google.

 

[AndrewB]

SSB and VHF.

Is the question whether you can use SSB radio to receive/transmit on VHF marine channels, such as channel 16? These use Frequency Modulated (FM) signals. Single Side-Band, by its nature, works with Amplitude Modulated (AM) signals only. So you can't hear or transmit VHF signals on a pure SSB set.

In any case, the frequency range for an SSB radio is typically set to between 30KHz - 30MHz (Long-Medium-Short waves). VHF uses much higher frequencies. The VHF marine band is located at 156-163MHz.

 

[HaraldS]

From a legal perspective they are two different worlds. Each no allowed to 'intrude' in the other. Technically, going either way is possible, but most sets are sold blocking the frequencies that they are not meant for. It is more likely for a HAM-set to be completely open, as HAMs are considered professional enough to not send on non-HAM frequecies accidentially.

Technical differnces:

Marine sets are organized in channels, with specific transmit and receive frequencies, some duplex, some half-duplex.
HAM sets are frequency oriented and easier to handle for HAM operations, where you can fine either key in or fine tune frequencies.
The marine set will always force you into a channel concept, even if it is completely open, like the one I have. No real HAM would like that, as it is slow and clucky.
It appears that marine sets are built a bit more rugged and they usually have 150W, whereas the typical HAM set has 100W. I don't think that makes a hell of a difference, and certainly on the HAM side prices are much better.
The dilemma is that legally, for a registered ship station, you would need a pure marine unit, that is blocked from sending on other than marine frequencies. Even if you hold both an LRC and a HAM license, in theory you would still need to devices.
A bit will depend on what you want to do, and how far towards illegal you may tolerate to move.
From a HAM perspective, nothings tops you from modifying a marine unit and use it for HAM operations. It may not be the ideal HAM rig, but it would be ok. However as soon as you do this, legally the unit looses it's marine radio approval. Would anybody care? I don't know.
The other way round is more difficult, because in order to register a ship station you will need to register a marine radio, and certainly the would not accept any HAM radio for that purpose.
So you may wonder wether HAM is all you need and if you should just forget about the shipping frequencies. I don't know the answer to that, but for communication between friends on ships some hundreds of miles apart, the now low used shipping frequecies are nice to have.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.taniwani.de>http://www.taniwani.de</A>

 

[PaulJ]

Andrew,

The Radio spectrum is divided by international agreement into "chunks" in which certain frequencies are allocated for certain uses. Technically there is no difference between a "Ham" frequency and a "Marine" frequency but legally (and under the conditions of the licences) if you want to transmit on a Ham frequency you must have a Ham licence and for a Marine frequency you must have a Marine licence (LRC). As Snowleopard says, a Ham rig is artificially blocked on marine frequencies and a Marine rig is similarly blocked for use on Ham freqencies and it is a simple matter for someone whows what he is doing to remove the block.

The other complication is that a marine installation has to be officially approved and inspected whereas a Ham "Maritime Mobile" doesn't.

FWIW, my thinking is that I am very unlikely ever to use a Marine frequency except possibly 2182 in an emergency and to listen in to weather broadcasts which is quite legal. All the cruising nets are on Ham frequencies so I have done the ham licence and intend to get a Ham rig and have it "wide banded".... it sounds as though the rig you are considering has already had any blocks removed. In the event that I have to use 2182 to in an emergency, I will argue about the legal niceties afterwards..... if I survive!

In answer to your question, as far as I can make out, most cruising folk do the same and use a wide-banded Ham radio with no problems. I guess the only drawback could be that it may not last as long as a pucker marine unit in the marine environment..... so if and when it gives up you get another on.... and will probably still have spent less than if you had bought a "Marine" rig in the first place.....

'Hope this helps

Paul.

 

[eddier]

Re: Thanks for info

Hi Guy's,
I am both a Ham radio operator and a yacht owner. As stated before a Ham radio is impossible to get licenced for marine use. There are several reasons for this but the 4 strongest reasons are
1. A "real marine radio is much more stable in frequency which means it will transmit (most important) and receive on very exact frequencies no matter what the temperature range or voltage supply etc.
2. Marine SSB is tuned in "Channels" therefore you go to a set channel number not caring exactly what frequency it actually is or having to tune it in from a band of frequencies (VERY important in an emergency)
3. It has a preset emergency frequency where you do not have to muck around tuning the unit but it will transmit immediately on a correct emergency frequency.
Having said all this, I have (not officially) used a Ham radio on marine frequencies without any problems. Modern ham radios are very stable and almost all have the facility to transmit on one frequency and receive on another without having to touch anything.
4. (hopefully) marine radios are designed for marine salt water conditions and will last much longer than a std ham radio.

Good luck

 

[Gunfleet]

<<The other complication is that a marine installation has to be officially approved and inspected whereas a Ham "Maritime Mobile" doesn't.>>
I haven't heard before of someone having their installation 'inspected'

 

[HaraldS]

Not sure how this is handled in differnt places. When I regsitered with the German regulation authority, all they wanted was a certificate of compliance from the Manufacturer. In fact my ship was never in German waters, so the inspection would have been an expensive boon doggle.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.taniwani.de>http://www.taniwani.de</A>

 

[PaulJ]

Neither have I.... I was trying to be brief! As I understand it, the Marine radio has to have a type approval and as others have said, it has to be registered as a marine station and it is in the nature of regulations that a man from the ministry can inspect at any time to ensure compliance.

 

[Gunfleet]

Well that's what I was thinking. Your boat is in Scotland and you're in England, or your boat is in Tenerife and you're in France, but you're British and it's British registered. How is this inspection going to work? Say they come along the pontoon and want to check every boat with backstay insulators. That would include me but I have no SSB on the boat. In reality I bet the inspections only take place when your broadcasts spoil the watching experience for the Dutchman and his tv dish on the next boat!

 

[Guest]

Ham radios (out of the box) will receive on all marine frequencies, but are programmed only to transmit on ham bands. Most can be "all banded" to transmit on all frequencies, and you will find most dealers happy to do this. Probably wont pass type approval like this, but when did you last see someone from the Radio Comm Agency?

Ham radio wont do the DSC bit on the marine bands.

But what do you want the marine bands for? Surely the S7R bit has gone by the board with the advent of epirbs and the demise of portishead? And the ham nets will give you good weather info at the cost of a bit of effort to get your ham license (not at all difficult now).

I've fitted ssb, got my ham license, but havent even bothered to all band the set and not regretted it.

I think you might find that marine sets withstand the dampness of an old wooden boat rather better than ham sets but I've not so far had a problem in a dry modern boat.

 

[snowleopard]

what do you want marine ssb for?

maybe not a lot this side of the pond but if you cross the atlantic you'll feel very lonely without it!

 

[charles_reed]

Basically it's a question of operator licensing.

Marine SSB sets only transmit on marine frequencies but at much greater outputs (up to 400watts) than are permitted (under UK regulations) to ham operators. To be allowed to use such a set you must have passed the Restricted Radio Operator's Licence (not the thing you get for vhf).

Ham radios only transmit on ham frequencies and there are quite heavy theoretic panalties for straying off them when transmitting - to operate a ham radio you have to have an international callsign and to have undertaken a recognised course of instruction (which is far more comprehensive and technical then the BoT one).

Both marine and ham radios can be reset to transmit and receive on other frequencies.
Most marine radio operators I know are also ham enthusiasts.

SSB radio is of little practical value in European coastal waters - unless you want to get involved in the various radio nets for "gossiping". However if you are planning on making any transoceanic passages SSB is the only thing on which you can transmit any more than a "dumb" Mayday position by 406 EPIRB. By the time you get to purchasing the marine SSB (a modified ham one is liable to summary confiscation by the Radio Licencing authorities), Plus the GMDSS controller you're up at around the price of a Inmarsat C unit.
That's far more useful, but using it does cost money and you have no "real-time" access.

I hope you're not now even more confused - most people don't really bother about the legal position, which is far more strict (and nonsensical) in the UK than anywhere else in the world.

 

[charles_reed]

UK type-approval is in hiatus - manufacturers' now carry out their own certification which is replacing type-approval on all new design sets