Spinnaker packing (symmetric)

[lpdsn]

Then when it is all in you duck down & do the velcro up over your head
On the next hoist when half way up the mast you jump out like superman & go " Boo"
You will not get the job anymore !!!

I'd give him the job. The 'Boo' would distract the other boats mid hoist. If there were a couple of leg holes in the bottom of the bag it could walk up to the foredeck.

 

[bbg]

My technique, FWIW.

Sit in cabin, with turtle on the floor between my legs. If it has a flap I will sit on that to hold one side of the bag up.

Find a clew. I usually work left to right, so once I have found a clew I sit on it. Put it under my left bum cheek.

Run the tape to the head and throw it to the far side of the cabin or secure it to something opposite me. Run the tape to the other clew and sit on it (under my right bum cheek).

Shove the sail into the turtle, belly first. I try to make an effort to put the last few meters in the turtle so that each corner and a couple of meters beyond the corner can come out easily.

Corners secured to the tapes on the bag. Job done.

 

[TLouth7]

This has been very informative, but how would you do it if you need to stay on the rail?

 

[flaming]

This has been very informative, but how would you do it if you need to stay on the rail?

I wouldn't. I'd drop into the hatch and hoist straight out of it. We only repack between races, and even then only really if we've used 2 kites. A possible improvement to our setup would be to divide the forecabin with a leecloth or similar to be able to have 2 kites ready to go in the hatch.

 

[TLouth7]

How would you do it if you need to stay on the rail?

I wouldn't. I'd drop into the hatch and hoist straight out of it.

On the Impala I race on we drop into a turtle on the pulpit (same set-up as a Sonata). Normally this is fine but sometimes you know or suspect the kite is twisted. Our approach to this has been to bring the turtle back to the rail and try to run the tapes without getting the sail out of the bag. Sadly this is not consistently successful.

I imagine the best solution would be to practise dropping until the kite always goes into the bag neatly.

 

[flaming]

On the Impala I race on we drop into a turtle on the pulpit (same set-up as a Sonata). Normally this is fine but sometimes you know or suspect the kite is twisted. Our approach to this has been to bring the turtle back to the rail and try to run the tapes without getting the sail out of the bag. Sadly this is not consistently successful.

I imagine the best solution would be to practise dropping until the kite always goes into the bag neatly.

If possible I'd use the forehatch, but I've not sailed an Impala. I know there are a few Impala sailors hereabouts, perhaps someone will chip in with what they do.

 

[MissFitz]

If possible I'd use the forehatch, but I've not sailed an Impala. I know there are a few Impala sailors hereabouts, perhaps someone will chip in with what they do.

A lot of Sonatas now drop down the companionway rather than into the turtle on the pulpit in order to keep weight off the bow, think some Impalas may do the same - but as you say, there are others on here who are better placed to comment on that!

 

[Daydream believer]

If there were a couple of leg holes in the bottom of the bag it could walk up to the foredeck.

Now you are being silly :disgust:
Funny after 6 pints at the bar though

 

[temptress]

We use the hatch handle, which is ideal. I am not a fan of hanging all 3 corners though, as when you hang them close together there is too much risk of accidentally twisting them when you unclip them at the end.

My packing goes like this.

1. Put bag on cabin sole, below where you're going to hang the head.
2. Find a tape and follow it to a corner. If that corner is the head, hang it up on the hatch handle. If it isn't the head throw it either forwards or backwards in the boat, whichever makes more sense given where the bulk of the sail is.
3. Follow the tapes down from the head to the clews and throw them in opposite directions as above. This spreads the corners out and ensures that you can't pack it twisted.
4. Run the Foot between the clews, ensuring that all the sail stays one side of the foot, and over the open bag.
5. Stuff the sail in the bag until only the 3 corners are out.
6. Attach the corners to the bag using their velcro tags and close the bag.

I use the same method, except I I'm on a boat with no where to secure the Head I pin it to a convenient location with a boot or my bum..... worked well for me for nearly 40+ years. on boats over say 70feet I vary the method and may resort to using bands on the Sail. though often these days top down furlers make handling large asymmetric /code 0 easier.

 

[temptress]

A lot of Sonatas now drop down the companionway rather than into the turtle on the pulpit in order to keep weight off the bow, think some Impalas may do the same - but as you say, there are others on here who are better placed to comment on that!

when I raced an impala, back in the early 80s, we dropped the kite into the main hatch.

 

[temptress]

This has been very informative, but how would you do it if you need to stay on the rail?

see

get a copy of North Sails utrim and usail books. they explain different ways of getting your kites up and down. if you have a loose footed main and are say 50ft or less it is quite easy to use the crew on the windward rail to gather the kite.

 

[Chris 249]

Sorry John, this is very outdated advice for a practice that has been banned by world sailing and needs to stop. If you are racing this breaks rule 55, and has been clarified as such even if the material used is biodegradable. And if you're not racing then you still end up putting rubbish in the water.

Anyone who saw the last episode of Blue Planet should be anti this practice...

Even worse was the short-lived practise of packing the spinnaker into a green plastic garbage bag before the start. The bag would be hoisted, the sheet and guy pulled, and the bag would tear apart, the kite would set beautifully, and the fleet would sail on leaving 30 plastic bags in the water.

Absolutely disgusting and shame on anyone who did it. Someone must have told those responsible to pull their heads in because it was stopped before r 55 came in, I think.

 

[bbg]

I wouldn't. I'd drop into the hatch and hoist straight out of it. We only repack between races, and even then only really if we've used 2 kites. A possible improvement to our setup would be to divide the forecabin with a leecloth or similar to be able to have 2 kites ready to go in the hatch.

I've raced on boats (J-24, for example) that had specific toggles and loops to be able to suspend the turtle in the hatch. So drop straight into the turtle and hoist again straight out of it.

 

[TLouth7]

I've raced on boats (J-24, for example) that had specific toggles and loops to be able to suspend the turtle in the hatch. So drop straight into the turtle and hoist again straight out of it.

Presumably this requires the next hoist to be on the appropriate tack? And if you know the sail went in twisted then there is no easy recourse to sort this?

In general I think we are happy with our setup, it's really a matter of all the crew work getting slicker so the kite comes down more consistently. The problem is compounded by often being short of crew, so may well be one trimmer to release both sheet and guy which makes it hard to give just the right amount of slack.

 

[flaming]

Presumably this requires the next hoist to be on the appropriate tack? And if you know the sail went in twisted then there is no easy recourse to sort this?

In general I think we are happy with our setup, it's really a matter of all the crew work getting slicker so the kite comes down more consistently. The problem is compounded by often being short of crew, so may well be one trimmer to release both sheet and guy which makes it hard to give just the right amount of slack.

In general if you haven't unplugged the kite but just dropped it into a bag or hatch it's pretty hard to drop it and hoist it twisted. It does happen, but it has to come down in a right mess not to just go up again, even if it looks like it's twisted.

 

[TLouth7]

In general if you haven't unplugged the kite but just dropped it into a bag or hatch it's pretty hard to drop it and hoist it twisted. It does happen, but it has to come down in a right mess not to just go up again, even if it looks like it's twisted.

Absolutely, I think there have been times where if we had left it alone everything would have been fine. The problem is that once the kite has gone up twisted one time everybody feels under pressure not to do it again, and so it is very tempting to bring it aft and try to run the tapes rather than leave it and hope for the best.

I suspect that making tactical decisions based on an honest estimate of the crew's capabilities on a given day (either taking more time, or sticking to established manoeuvres when short-handed) would have a bigger impact on the number of mistakes made. Also more open debriefs so that tactical decision makers have a better appreciation for the pressures on those in front of the mast (or rather him/her).

Not that we make a lot of mistakes, but it would be nice to aim for one or two per season rather than per race.

 

[lpdsn]

Presumably this requires the next hoist to be on the appropriate tack? .

Yes. It means you have to think about which side you drop it and are going to hoist it the next time, so it does affect your tactics.

You can do a windward drop into a forehatch (but obviously not the companionway) in light-mod airs - practice it first though.

And of course you can always get the bowman to re-run the gear but that negates a fair bit of the advantage of a forehatch drop.

 

[Ingwe]

You can do a windward drop into a forehatch (but obviously not the companionway) in light-mod airs - practice it first though
.

We regularly do windward drops into the companionway, with a symmetric you have a member of crew be a human pole (so the trimmers have to float the kite there for them), the pole comes off and then once the drop is called the human pole runs back to the hatch with the tack of the sail, the foot is gathered in and the sail is dropped - this should take pretty much the same time as your leeward drop with the slight advantage that the pole is out the way before the manoeuvre starts so you know you can tack instantly after the mark.

Its still fairly easy to do with an asymmetric you just have to go deep for a few seconds so the crew can gybe the clew of the sail around and gather the foot in at the beginning of the drop in manoeuvre terms it takes more time than a leeward drop with an assy but if you have pre planned the manoeuvre the 15 seconds where your sailing very deep mitigates some of the loss and if you need a bit more soak into the mark we sometimes gybe the spinnaker and set it again to goosewing pre drop to save having to do another 2 full gybes.

 

[lpdsn]

We regularly do windward drops into the companionway, with a symmetric you have a member of crew be a human pole (so the trimmers have to float the kite there for them), the pole comes off and then once the drop is called the human pole runs back to the hatch with the tack of the sail, the foot is gathered in and the sail is dropped - this should take pretty much the same time as your leeward drop with the slight advantage that the pole is out the way before the manoeuvre starts so you know you can tack instantly after the mark.

Sounds good. We use a human guy too with the symmetric. Your technique is very dependent upon the foot being gathered in, I think, and the spreaders could be awkward if it goes wrong.

What's your thinking of doing the drop into the companionway rather than the forehatch? The big advantage of the windward drop is that it gets the spinnaker and gear set up for the next hoist. Not sure that's such an advantage from the companionway - I've also regularly done drops onto the sidedeck (usually for slalom courses with short legs) and although it works most of the time there's always a risk of snagging during the re-hoist when hoisting from aft of the mast.

 

[bbg]

Yes. It means you have to think about which side you drop it and are going to hoist it the next time, so it does affect your tactics.

You can do a windward drop into a forehatch (but obviously not the companionway) in light-mod airs - practice it first though.

And of course you can always get the bowman to re-run the gear but that negates a fair bit of the advantage of a forehatch drop.

Re-running the gear is not a massive chore. Separate the corners, unclip the sheets and halyard, clip them all together and then pull them round to the other side. There is a lot of friction as they go around the forestay and someone needs to ensure that the halyard doesn't get caught on the spreaders, but we have done this many times with most people sitting on the rail - helping to feed the windward sheet forward while someone aft is pulling on the leeward spinnaker sheet.

The bowman might need to help the whole mess around the forestay, but a lot of this can be done with most people on the rail. Once the three lines get to the other side of the boat, they are re-clipped to the kite.

But most of the time, on a windward-leeward course (unless there was a huge advantage to hoisting on the "wrong" side in which case we would re-run the sheets) we would just gybe the boat before the hoist, hoist, then gybe back.