Spinnaker Gybes

[BobPeters]

I'm looking into getting my first spinnaker for a Bavaria 36 (my first big boat) and I'm getting conflicting advice about how I should gybe. I've read that end-to-end pole gybing is considered only suitable in relatively light winds and on boats up to 35ft, but then a sail maker I spoke to yesterday said I should definitely stay away from dip-pole gybing unless I was an expert. Some people say I should have 2 sheets and guys to make it easier; others say having lazy sheets and guys will result in more potential for tangles. The boat does not have separate spinnaker winches. What method would be considered most 'normal' for a boat of this size, and capable but fairly inexperienced crew. We will be racing, but doubt that we'll worrying the fleet too much at the moment.

Also, does a 1oz spinnaker seem sensible? I don't want something I'm likely to destroy the first time we screw up, but would like to at least have the chance of being competitive.

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[Talbot]

If your intention is racing, then start with the method that will be most use - the dip pole gybe. - expect some problems until you get it right, and do it in light wind until you get proficient.

You will need lazy sheets, and I would recommend dedicated winches for this purpose. It would also be beneficial to have the spinnaker uphaul and downhaul on lines led back to the cockpit.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Talbot on 20/05/2004 10:02 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[rwoofer]

You need more crew to do a dip pole gybe, because the foredeck guy has to be at the bow to clip the new (currently lazy) guy. This means someone else needs to hoist the inboard end of the pole and drop the other end down (the dip).

The beauty of dip pole gybes is that all the work is done with the lazy/slack sheets, therefore the spinnaker can be misbehavin (as in a strong wind) without endangering anyone. You will however need more winches as you need to take up the slack lines before you can release the old sheet/guys.

End-for-end is a much simpler operation, but you are working with lines that are under tension, or may whip if the spinnaker collapses and refills (this is particularly the case when you are trying to re-attach the inboard end of the pole). The bigger the boat, the more restricted you are in terms of wind strength before things get dangerous.

What can ultimately decide it is whether the foredeck person can actually reach the guy when the spinnaker is flying, if they can't you can only do dip pole.

In your situation I would probably try end for end in light winds and try working up from there to see at what wind strength things are starting to get dangerous for the foredeck. Then you can decide whether it is windy enough that you could do alright without a spinnaker. Other get some extra winches and go for dip pole.

Hope this helps.

RB

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[flaming]

If you want to fly a kite in anything except light winds you will need guys and sheets. The guys will then need to come from blocks that are much further forward in the boat than the sheets which normally sheet from right at the stern. Deploying seperate guys is done for two main reasons. Firstly the loads in the guy are much higher, so a stronger rope is used. Secondally, a guy that comes from amidships (roughly) has a much cleaner lead than a guy that come from further aft and so will generate smaller loads due to the angle. You may also find that when reaching a guy set from the stern will play havock with your guardrails.

Once you are using seperate sheets and guys the norm is dip pole gybe. To initiate the gybe you take up the slack in the windward sheet (not guy) then the bowman takes the pole off the guy. At this point swop the sheet onto the winch. Now gybe the main. The kite should now be capable of being flown for a short period of time without the pole on it's two sheets. The bowman now raises the inboard end of the pole and gybes it. The new guy will still be slack, so it will be a peice of cake to get the pole onto the new guy. Once the pole has been reset put the new guy on the winch and transfer the load to it.

From experience the only time something major goes wrong with this method is when the helm isn't paying attention and collapses the kite whilst there is no pole on it. With end to end gybing the bowman has to lightfingered to avoid collapsing the kite with the pole.

hope that helps.

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[boatless]

Talbot and RB Stretch are quite right. In stronger breezes the end for end will be a handful.

1oz is quite heavy, would have thought that, since you'll initially be flying it only in lighter weather, you'd be better off with 1/2 or 3/4.

RE: dedicated winches. Jamming footblocks can also solve the genoa sheet/guy dilemma. Often available as a direct replacement for existing footblock. Using halyard winches for sheets will also help.

Another tip. Fit the pole downhaul block with a snapshackle at the deck. Lets you unclip, momentarily, to move the genoa and sheet from side to side. Don't need the genoa sheet over the pole then.

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Two quick tips for dip pole gybing.

1. Mark the mast slider attachment for the spinnaker pole at the minimum height it needs to be to swing the pole down through the eye of the boat.

2. Mark the spinnaker pole topping lift so that you know where to drop the pole to to achieve the above.

Practice slowly in light winds. You need lots of co-ordination between cockpit and foredeck.

Try not to distract the helm so that he/she keeps you dead down wind for the gybe.

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[drawp]

All good advice from everyone. My 10 cents worth is to go off somewhere away from other boats, talk it through with the crew and practice it a few times. With good preparation, you will be surprised how easy it becomes.

Happy sailing.

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[yoda]

On that size boat the safest way to gybe is with twin poles as the kite remains under control throughout the gybe. Yes it does mean 2 poles, uphauls and downhauls but a poor gybe and a blown out kite can be expensive. You still need twin sheets and guys just as for a dip pole however with 2 poles and a little room 2 of you can quite happily gybe the boat without fuss or worry. Hope tha helps.

Yoda

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[Sunnyseeker]

Loads of usefull advise, you should have no problems now...
the dip or end for end option is really dependant on the type of end pole fitting, some poles have a cup and socket at the mast end which cant be end for ended...
If you can end for end... in lighter winds, and with a good bow man its quicker and faster...but also depends on the height of the kite some you cant reach the pole!

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[Keen_Ed]

The choice of how to gybe is influenced by many factors. At 36, as you might have surmized, at 36ft, you're starting to get to the size of boat where dip pole gybing starts becoming essential.

So: the dip pole gybe. If you're spinnaker pole has assymetric ends - one end with jaws, the other with a male/female socket on the mast, you have to dip. The main advantage of dipping is that the pole remains under more control - one end is permanently attached to the mast - this starts to be significant at your size. Disadvantages include is that it requires a certain amount of co-ordinated teamwork between bow, mast, spinnaker trimmers and helm. Also, the bowman has to go all the way forward to place the lazy guy in the jaws.

End-for-end. The major disadvantage of this method is that during the gybe, the pole is not attached to the mast, and is free to swing around - subject to being manhandled by the foredeck crew. With a big, heavy, pole, this can be difficule. For a 36ft boat, personally, I wouldn't think about end-for-ending unless there was a carbon spinnaker pole. Even if you are going to end for end, lazy sheets and guys are a very good idea. In anything other than very light winds, trying to clip the pole back on the mast can be difficult if you're not using them, and the guy is loaded up. Also, because you have to use bridles on the pole for the uphaul and foreguy, they're less effective.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with 2 poles for a boat of your size. Lots of clutter, for little advantage. It's a very slow way to gybe compared to a good dip gybe. OK, so if you do dip, there is a period when the kite has no pole, and is flying free. The thing to do, is rather than go with a 2 pole system, practice flying the kite without a pole - it requires a certain knack, and coordination between helm and trimmer.

You shouldn't really need extra winches. As long as your halyard clutches are efficient, and your main and jib halyards don't have to live on a winch to maintain luff tension, you can use the halyard winches for the sheets, and use the primaries for the guys. The one thing that you do have to be able to do is tension the jib halyard using either winch - one of those little deck organising blocks helps here. This is because, say your jib halyard is to port, and you're on starboard gybe with the spinnaker sheet on the port halyard winch, you have to be able to tension the jib before you reach the bottom mark and take the sheet off the winch.

The main thing to do is practice. Get to the stage where you can nail your hoists, gybes and drops - straightforward bear-away hoists, and leeward drops. Don't just practice run-to-run gybes, but include broad reach-to-broad reach. Go with a normal guy run drop, but practice until it is quick and efficient. Once you have nailed these, you can move onto more esoteric moves like gybe sets, tack/gybe sets, mexican and float drops.

This advice is, like all advice you get on the internet, worth what you paid for it. The thing to do is to go and ask your sailmaker, and also see if he can come out and give some advice. The other thing is practice. Every time you go racing, before the race starts, hoist the spinnaker, gybe a few times, and drop it. Or, if you find yourself waiting for some wind, hoist the spinnaker, and motor backwards while practicing gybing.

Also, you might find The Offshore Race Crew's Manual by Stuart Quarrie useful. ISBN: 1853105104

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[boatless]

"and motor backwards while practicing gybing"

I thought I was the only person that did this. Dammit.

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[BobPeters]

Thank you very much to everyone for all your great advice - extremely useful.

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