Spain shoots at jet skiers.... ?

MASH said:
VO5, you know exactly what I mean.

I support most those aspirations but suspect that neither the Gibraltarian nor the British cause is furthered by characterising as "firm in our resolve" some of the irrational, inaccurate, deluded and totally one-sided messianic rantings here that would seem more appropriate in the Lounge...
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What exactly do you mean supporting MOST of those aspirations ?
What exactly ?
You ought to be supporting all of these aspirations.
You might accept being trampled over by some tinpot state, we are not here to be trampled over by anyone, that is why our resolve is the opposite to yours.
You might give in easily - we never surrender.
As for the lounge....who are you exactly ? Are you now the self appointed arbiter of taste or what ?
This thread was started here, and not by me.
If you don't like what you read here in this discussion, don't read, and don't post just for the sake of provoking.
Post intelligently or don't post at all.
 
Its pretty clear that it's the Spanish who need to learn to live with Gib, not the other way around. Spain gave up Gib aeons ago by a perfectly legal treaty ( Tr. of Utrecht) which has been ratified at least twice since. They don't have a leg to stand on in that respect, be they fascist, nazi, or just frothing at the mouth loonies like some in this argument seem to be. They need to be made to behave in a civilised manner but a look at the territiorial waters recognised by Spain (the harbour inside the moles and nothing whatsoever else) tell us this isn't likely soon. They regard Spanish waters as extending right up to the shore in Gib, all round and that's clearly idiotic but allows them to deny any incursion they please right up to the shoreline.

The Spanish Navy won't be stopped from flying 500m N of the runway because they are in Spanish airspace and irritating as it may be to the frothers they know that by giving ten - better fifteen minutes warning they'll ensure all traffic at Gib is stopped for the time it takes them to appear - and how to reasonably criticise them for having given a warning? A bit of a puzzle, that one, there's no safety case. Just lots of frothing and impotent gnashing of teeth. Extremely provocative, yes, but unless the politicos can do anything (ha!) there isn't an obvious solution.

Can somebody post a map of the disputed territorial waters so we can see what it all looks like? There are some good ones on the net but its beyond me.

If we retaliate against
 
Rigger Mortice said:
In the long run the present arrangement is not sustainable. Eventually it will have to change.
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Just saying it don't make it so. The 14 Overseas Territories of the UK have a population of about 250.000 few if any of whom want the status quo to change, Gibraltar is one. So just because you don't care they are to be discarded?
 
VO5 said:
Post intelligently or don't post at all.
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Hoist by your own petard, VO5, I think.



The only thing I don't agree with in your list, actually, is your bizarre view that you will accept no change. That is a policy that will doom you and yours as surely as the dinosaurs which you so closely resemble.

Lounge? It is your own wildly inaccurate posts and ridiculous fulminations that have given so many good laughs, or would have done were this not such a serious subject but raving like Henry VIII with gout with isn't going to resolve anything and frankly does nothing for credibility or sympathy towards the British territory I suspect most of us support and you, God help them, claim to represent.

As this thread isn't in the Lounge I'd have thought you owe it to Gibraltar to put a reasoned case, rather than making such a mockery of the argument by your ill-considered outbursts instructing all and sundry how they must think and whether they are happy to be trampled over or not. I suspect that's not the most tactful way to discuss this with the Spanish to put it mildly.

Even considered a job as a Vogon diplomat? ;)
 
Rigger Mortice said:
I'm getting the impression that there are elements in Gibraltar who are looking to hype things up in an effort to keep the whole Gib/Spain question high on the political agenda.

Perhaps they should be looking to find ways to live with Spain? The status quo can't last forever and a pin prick bit of empire really isn't sustainable in the long run. Whether next year, or in 100years, eventually it will have to be returned to Spain.
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No Teapot, we don't give in.
I never give in if I am right.
I have just had an incident on the road at the sundial.
We are in a queue of cars. The lights are red. We are all waiting patiently for the lights to change.
They go green.
I move forward as I am the first in the queue.
Suddenly, this expat with three brats chooses to ignore the traffic signal, pushes the children onto the road and steps in front of my vehicle.
So I brake hard and point to the lights.
"Feck Off !" he yells at me.
So I get out of my car to confront this yob.
The policeman on point spots it and comes running.
This expat yob now gets really abusive, both to him and to me.
Result ?
Handcuffs - and off in the van. A policewoman appears and takes charge of his brats.
Teapot, we don't take ****e from anyone. We are not like you.
We are very firm in our resolve and united as a people and we will not give in like you think we ought to.
I have told you before.
How many times ?
How many times do you have to be told Teapot ?
 
MASH said:
Hoist by your own petard, VO5, I think.



The only thing I don't agree with in your list, actually, is your bizarre view that you will accept no change. That is a policy that will doom you and yours as surely as the dinosaurs which you so closely resemble.

Lounge? It is your own wildly inaccurate posts and ridiculous fulminations that have given so many good laughs, or would have done were this not such a serious subject but raving like Henry VIII with gout with isn't going to resolve anything and frankly does nothing for credibility or sympathy towards the British territory I suspect most of us support and you, God help them, claim to represent.

As this thread isn't in the Lounge I'd have thought you owe it to Gibraltar to put a reasoned case, rather than making such a mockery of the argument by your ill-considered outbursts instructing all and sundry how they must think and whether they are happy to be trampled over or not. I suspect that's not the most tactful way to discuss this with the Spanish to put it mildly.

Even considered a job as a Vogon diplomat? ;)
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What change exactly ?
Spain wants sovereignty.
Spain wants to rule over us.
We won't have it.
It is that simple.
 
VO5 said:
No Teapot, we don't give in.
I never give in if I am right.
I have just had an incident on the road at the sundial.
We are in a queue of cars. The lights are red. We are all waiting patiently for the lights to change.
They go green.
I move forward as I am the first in the queue.
Suddenly, this expat with three brats chooses to ignore the traffic signal, pushes the children onto the road and steps in front of my vehicle.
So I brake hard and point to the lights.
"Feck Off !" he yells at me.
So I get out of my car to confront this yob.
The policeman on point spots it and comes running.
This expat yob now gets really abusive, both to him and to me.
Result ?
Handcuffs - and off in the van. A policewoman appears and takes charge of his brats.
Teapot, we don't take ****e from anyone. We are not like you.
We are very firm in our resolve and united as a people and we will not give in like you think we ought to.
I have told you before.
How many times ?
How many times do you have to be told Teapot ?
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Gosh. Good rant.

The fact that you identify the other chap as an "expat" just highlights what an insular view of the world you seem to have.

Whether you like it or not, the time is coming when Gib will have to change. As far as I can see it contributes nothing to this country other than to act as a tax haven for a few to avoid taxes which would otherwise be paid into the exchequer.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
Gosh. Good rant.

The fact that you identify the other chap as an "expat" just highlights what an insular view of the world you seem to have.

Whether you like it or not, the time is coming when Gib will have to change. As far as I can see it contributes nothing to this country other than to act as a tax haven for a few to avoid taxes which would otherwise be paid into the exchequer.
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Rant ? No.
It may be because you tolerate this kind of behaviour.
Who knows, you may actually resort to expressing yourself in the vernacular when off these boards.
But I am different to you.
This individual was an Ex pat.
His accent was clearly a Birmingham accent.
This made him immediately identifiable.
He may additionally been under the influence of alcohol.
Now you grumble about our tax laws.
That is because you are devoted to pursue mediocrity.
If you were the opposite you would prefer to live in a better climate, within a caring society and one not burdened by an over zealous exchequer.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
So you agree that Gib contributes nothing to this country?
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First of all the economy of Gibraltar is wholly self sufficient, and is in surplus, not in deficit.
We have a successful economy and not an unsuccessful one.
We comply with all the EU laws and operate a very strict financial regulation cluster.
You will find we punch far above our weight.
Secondly the UK taxpayer does not subside us at all.
Thirdly we contribute a lot. Whenever there is a punch up you ask for help and we give it.
One example is what happened in the Falklands war.
A ship was needed urgently to be put into a state of instant readiness with a massive refit that it was calculated no yard in the UK could or would complete in time.
The ship was sent here.
It was completed in only six weeks by Gibraltarians working voluntarily for flat wages and no overtime payday and night, weekday and weekend, and the wives and girlfriends bringing hot meals for the boys so the very urgent job could not be interrupted. It was finished in less than half the time estimated.
The Royal Gibraltar Regiment deployed to Afghanistan to support UK troops, in which they served with distinction. A personal friend of mine who is the current CO was awarded the Military Cross for having saved a whole troop singlehanded of your lot when they were caught in an ambush.
UK charities are given record donations every time an appeal is made. This includes all sorts from the Poppy Appeal to the Hillborough Disaster, from the Aberfan Disaster to Cancer Research. Gibraltarians are noted for being exceptionally charitable. We are a caring society. We welcome everybody, but you have to behave. If you don't behave, smack botty !
Before MOD properties were gradually released, our government paid rent for them.
We are not spongers. If we have healthcare in the UK, our government pays for it.
The same goes for University places and everything else. We pay our way, always. We ask for nothing. We only ask that the UK fulfils its commitment to defend us when and if we need defending.
And there are many other forms of contribution I cannot think of at this moment and too numerous to list but not only financial, but cultural, scientific, artistic, sport, tourism, travel, education, etc.,
What are you giving us here in exchange Teapot, just aggravation and silly circular argument just for the sake of it, eh ?
 
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Of course Gib has a thriving economy. Much of its money is made by being a tax haven with its financial and gambling business's succeeding because it is little more than a leach on the economies of other countries.

Personally, I think that it should be told to either survive on its own or as part of Spain. I know you won't like that, but nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. You have, in fact, convinced me even more.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
Of course Gib has a thriving economy. Much of its money is made by being a tax haven with its financial and gambling business's succeeding because it is little more than a leach on the economies of other countries.

Personally, I think that it should be told to either survive on its own or as part of Spain. I know you won't like that, but nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. You have, in fact, convinced me even more.
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Gib has a thriving economy because we are not being bled to death by the EU, for starters.
Gib is not a tax haven as you describe.
A tax haven is a territory that is complicit in tax evasion and tax avoidance.
Gib does nothing of the sort.
What Gib has is a very favourable tax structure that is helpful to entrepreneurial objectives.
I have already told you once the economy of Gibraltar is self sufficient, and for your information has been for a very long time.
But you lot over there seem to suffer from a particular Anglo Saxon disease which is that of negativity.
In the UK, you have the collective and corrosive attitude of pretending to create success, but the moment it materialises, you do your best to kill it.
This just does not apply to enterprises but also successful businessmen who create and build these enterprises only to become the targets of envy and malice.
Over there you take delight in building people up and even greater delight in wrecking them, bringing them down as soon as an opportunity arises, like some sort of perverse national sport.
We have no such corrosive culture here.
We are the opposite.
We are dedicated to the pursuit of improvement and positive expectancy.
You are devoted to the pursuit of destruction and negative expectancy, and when you get the results you wish for, there is all this moaning and handwringing and vitriol. Not here.
We have three main industries which are booming.
You have many more but they are declining.
You have the wrong mindset and the wrong attitude.
We can survive no matter what.
Part of Spain ?
You must be joking !
Spain is a corrupt, inefficient, backward, mismanaged nation.
Their problems are very different to yours.
It is a great shame, because they could be very successful if they were able to get their act together and put their house in proper order.
But they will not because they cannot.
They perceive erroneously that if they were to get their paws on Gibraltar they could run it the way we do.
But it would not be the case.
They would reduce it to their level and ruin it within one year, not more.
I don't need to convince you one way or the other.
and I am not going to argue with you.
I have in my life had the misfortune of having to struggle with dunces.
And I have learnt a great deal about the folly of persisting pointlessly.
Therefore, I am not going to ignore my experience and waste time and effort with you engaged in silly circular argument that you enjoy for the sake of it.
But I have given you the facts.
And my posture remains resolute Teapot, take it or leave it, so there !
 
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Mmmmm. You pay your way? How much do you spend on defence? Other than shipping and tourism the majority of your income (finance and gambling in particular) is based upon lower taxes. By undercutting other countries you draw money in...that's the only reason people use those services. Hence tax haven.
You don't even pay your share of CAP, yet you are happy to have the cheap food that the rest of the EU supplies.

Gibraltar will have to learn to accept change. Us lot, as you so readily describe the Brits, will not be prepared to maintain the status quo forever.

You are right to close off by referring to your posture. I told you earlier in this thread that all you were doing was posturing. A very macho, swaggering type of posturing but, neverthless, posturing.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
Mmmmm. You pay your way? How much do you spend on defence? Other than shipping and tourism the majority of your income (finance and gambling in particular) is based upon lower taxes. By undercutting other countries you draw money in...that's the only reason people use those services. Hence tax haven.
You don't even pay your share of CAP, yet you are happy to have the cheap food that the rest of the EU supplies.

Gibraltar will have to learn to accept change. Us lot, as you so readily describe the Brits, will not be prepared to maintain the status quo forever.

You are right to close off by referring to your posture. I told you earlier in this thread that all you were doing was posturing. A very macho, swaggering type of posturing but, neverthless, posturing.
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I don't know the answer to your first question. I do know our military are subsidised in part out of the UK defence estimates, but there again our military is part of the British Army. It contributes significantly to military effort out of the territory as and when needed. We are too small to have a navy or an air force of our own. I don't have any figures but in the scheme of things it cannot be very much.

Again you use the tax haven accusation. You do not seem to grasp the concept that efficient economies can have lower taxes and inefficient ones higher.

Food ? I am not aware of any tax on food, anywhere.

Maintain? You obviously live in another era. Gibraltar is self sufficient. You try to imply you lot are keeping us, which is incorrect.

Posturing ? It is a pity that more people in more countries do not have more pride in their own sense of nationality, instead of allowing themselves to be ruled by unelected entities, only to grumble and complain but to do nothing about it, are my replies to you, Teapot.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
I'm getting the impression that there are elements in Gibraltar who are looking to hype things up in an effort to keep the whole Gib/Spain question high on the political agenda.

Perhaps they should be looking to find ways to live with Spain? The status quo can't last forever and a pin prick bit of empire really isn't sustainable in the long run. Whether next year, or in 100years, eventually it will have to be returned to Spain.
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What a fascinating thread to return to after a few days sailing around the Straits!

I suppose it's the Internet forum kind of thing where the sadly uninformed offer opinions on things they really know
nothing about!

We have VO5 robustly defending his homeland..... And my adopted home too using his exceptional knowledge of the place being contested by people who, er, admit they have never been to!

How odd is that.......

Anyway it's an open forum all opinions count.

What you can be reassured about is that Gibraltar is successful. The surplus in the recent budget proves it.

You may also note that Gibraltar will never be Spanish in the same way that the Isle of Wight will never be Nigerian. Or Ceuta, from where I am posting this, will never be Moroccan.

Gib is British. Gib is no longer a tax haven. Sorry to disappoint!

I repeat my invitation, for anyone who wishes to learn moe I will happily guide you around the Rock.

Admiralty chart 1448 guides the mariner and shows the territorial waters.

Cheers all, CS
 
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VO5 said:
I don't know the answer to your first question. I do know our military are subsidised in part out of the UK defence estimates, but there again our military is part of the British Army. It contributes significantly to military effort out of the territory as and when needed. We are too small to have a navy or an air force of our own. I don't have any figures but in the scheme of things it cannot be very much.

osturing ? It is a pity that more people in more countries do not have more pride in their own sense of nationality, instead of allowing themselves to be ruled by unelected entities, only to grumble and complain but to do nothing about it, are my replies to you, Teapot.
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You don't know how much you lot pay for defence, yet you demand that this country defends you??? If you were really paying your way as you have claimed, you would be paying your share of the defence budget which we all pay for over here.

Nobody said anything about tax on food. CAP was mentioned. It is largely responsible for the cheap food in EU which is paid for by everyone in EU levies.....but not by Gib.
 
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