Some thoughts on DS and CS training

[sgr143]

Browsing the most recent PBO, an article about short-handed sailing prompted a discussion over breakfast about training courses.( I've done DS and CS, Sandra CC; so we can't comment on the more elevated levels of training. )

It occurred to us that all the training in the RYA courses is based on having a boat-load of reasonably together and willing crew; whereas most of us (I think?) sail with usually only our spouses or equivalent. So many of the techniques and procedures we learnt on these courses have had to be quite significantly adapted to work well with the way we normally sail. For example, on coming alongside a pontoon: on the courses, you usually have two people stepping off, with a bow line and a stern line, and maybe a couple others standing by to fend off or whatever. It took us ages to work out that with only a single crew member, trying to handle two lines is madness, and it's far better to use initially just a short line on the midships cleat, and then add the other lines when all is secure and stable (maybe we are a bit dim).

In Duncan Wells' book, the intro makes this point as well. I can't remember the exact words (my copy is on the boat, which is currently inaccessible), but it's something along the lines of "Look at this chap. He's been on a course which has taught him how to sail and he has a shiny certificate to prove it. On his course, he sailed with an instructor and 4 or 5 other trainees and now he's taking his wife and children out on a charter boat. He will most likely scare himself and them rigid, and they'll never come back again."

So... might it be a good idea if the RYA courses included stuff on "sailing as you are likely to do it", rather than "sailing with half-a dozen eager beavers"?

Steve

 

[john_morris_uk]

Browsing the most recent PBO, an article about short-handed sailing prompted a discussion over breakfast about training courses.( I've done DS and CS, Sandra CC; so we can't comment on the more elevated levels of training. )

It occurred to us that all the training in the RYA courses is based on having a boat-load of reasonably together and willing crew; whereas most of us (I think?) sail with usually only our spouses or equivalent. So many of the techniques and procedures we learnt on these courses have had to be quite significantly adapted to work well with the way we normally sail. For example, on coming alongside a pontoon: on the courses, you usually have two people stepping off, with a bow line and a stern line, and maybe a couple others standing by to fend off or whatever. It took us ages to work out that with only a single crew member, trying to handle two lines is madness, and it's far better to use initially just a short line on the midships cleat, and then add the other lines when all is secure and stable (maybe we are a bit dim).

In Duncan Wells' book, the intro makes this point as well. I can't remember the exact words (my copy is on the boat, which is currently inaccessible), but it's something along the lines of "Look at this chap. He's been on a course which has taught him how to sail and he has a shiny certificate to prove it. On his course, he sailed with an instructor and 4 or 5 other trainees and now he's taking his wife and children out on a charter boat. He will most likely scare himself and them rigid, and they'll never come back again."

So... might it be a good idea if the RYA courses included stuff on "sailing as you are likely to do it", rather than "sailing with half-a dozen eager beavers"?

Steve

I suggest that good instructors on RYA courses do exactly what you’re suggesting.

 

[capnsensible]

Generally, sailing instructors will spend the first day or two of a course chatting to their students and finding out what they aspire to. It's fairly straightforward to tailor the course syllabus to include practice at short handed sailing, manouvering, mob, etc.

 

[sgr143]

I suggest that good instructors on RYA courses do exactly what you’re suggesting.

Well, it didn't happen on the courses I went on. Maybe I was unlucky. I didn't feel that I was badly instructed, mind you; I learnt a lot on them. It just needed quite a bit of re-thinking when we came to owning our own boat. The instructors (as far as I remember) did ask about experience and aspirations (as CapnSensible suggests) - but as a relatively novice sailor (even at CS level) who'd only been sailing with larger groups even when not on courses, it didn't occur to me to think that what may first post was about might be a consideration. Like I said, maybe I'm a bit dim; but more maybe that you only find out what you needed to ask about rather after the event.

 

[penberth3]

Well, it didn't happen on the courses I went on. Maybe I was unlucky. I didn't feel that I was badly instructed, mind you; I learnt a lot on them. It just needed quite a bit of re-thinking when we came to owning our own boat. The instructors (as far as I remember) did ask about experience and aspirations (as CapnSensible suggests) - but as a relatively novice sailor (even at CS level) who'd only been sailing with larger groups even when not on courses, it didn't occur to me to think that what may first post was about might be a consideration. Like I said, maybe I'm a bit dim; but more maybe that you only find out what you needed to ask about rather after the event.

You're asking yourself the right questions, which suggests you'll work it out for yourself and be OK. I guess some people need spoon-feeding, results depend on depend on calibre of instructor (as mentioned above) and the time available.

 

[LittleSister]

I learnt a lot on them. It just needed quiet a bit of re-thinking when we came to owning our own boat.

But isn't that exactly what the skipper is trained to do on Day Skipper and Coastal Skipper courses? - Use the knowledge and experience you have (which will always be less than fully comprehensive), and apply it constructively to whatever situation you are facing.

It isn't a rehearsal of every situation you'll face, it's preparation for facing familiar and unfamiliar situations as the person with responsibility for the boat and crew (if any). It's especially about how you manage your crew (or lack thereof!), and adapt your endeavours to their strengths and weaknesses.

If you have a small and/or inexperienced crew, and you didn't practice e.g. coming alongside short-handed on your course (and I'd be surprised if you did none of that), you, as skipper, can decide that what you'll do is spend some time with your crew doing 'circuits and bumps' of repeatedly coming alongside together (ideally in a range of locations). That will make them (and you) more experienced, and (if it's managed well by you) bring the ships crew together as a functioning team.

You don't need a course for that, you need to act as skipper, to address the situation (e.g. by making a bit of time sailing together first in not too challenging situations).

Good luck, and happy sailing!

 

[st599]

I did Day Skipper then went and skippered for a flotilla specialising in young people and music. That was an eye opener and a great learning facility. Spent most of the month single handing in to Greek harbours.

 

[Sandy]

I am a big fan of Stress Free Sailing, even met Duncan Wells at the SBS in 2018 and thanked him for it.

I am also a fan of the way that the RYA teaches a standard way of doing things. I can step on a boat with others and we all do the same thing. A funny example of when having crew who don't do the standard thing was was trying to get 5 tonnes of boat off a pontoon with about 3 knots of tide rushing past the keel and trying to undo something that roughly looked like an OXO but clearly was not - that took about 10 mins and a second warp to sort out.

 

[lustyd]

far better to use initially just a short line on the midships cleat

This was specifically covered at length on all three of the RYA courses I've attended for yacht sailing. Using a bow spring for the same purpose was also covered when I had own boat tuition, which was new to me but really useful for coming and going alone.

 

[sgr143]

Thanks for the various comments. "For the avoidance of doubt", as the lawyers say, we've owned and sailed Osprey now for 5 years, so while we've still a lot to learn, we're past (fingers crossed) the newbie stage now; my post was more a reflection back to the early days of operating one's own boat than an "Oh Lord, what have I got myself into?"! But in answer to LittleSister, of course I'm fully with the point that the Skipper uses their experience and nous to work with what they've got, familiar or not. I don't expect to be spoon-fed, and I'm not complaining that I wasn't given step-by-step instructions for every situation. If it came over like that, I apologise. I was more musing on the difference between the situation on a course boat and what ends up for most of us being normal sailing. I'm in danger of tying myself in knots (any of the 5 types taught and any of the others I've learnt for myself) here, so maybe I'll leave it...

 

[sgr143]

This was specifically covered at length on all three of the RYA courses I've attended for yacht sailing.

Not on any of mine... so it goes.

 

[RJJ]

I think it's a fair point. I did all my quals with the Services, where it was very much pitched at taking full crews out...that was the whole point.

So (about 25k miles later) recently came to ownership myself and only just learned the short-handed technique. No harm done...but it would have been a useful pointer back at DS level.

While I strongly agree with #6, there's also an element of "not knowing what you don't know". It's true to say that most DS will at some point (and perhaps quite soon) be short-handed; it's not difficult or time-consuming to point them towards the appropriate technique.

Should it be on the required syllabus? perhaps.

 

[lustyd]

Not on any of mine... so it goes.

It would be good if added to the sylabus as suggested, it's been really valuable to me since learning

 

[RupertW]

I agree with you and I had already owned a boat for a decade before I went on my first RYA course, first CS then YM a couple of weeks apart. The first was excellent - found out my gaps, and asked a lot about how I normally sail, the second was much more regimented. I wasn’t upset by that at first as I was being taught how to run a boat with six enthusiastic people on it and all the new techniques that allowed plus a few things I’d never tried , and it was all prep for the practical exam at the end of the week.

Then on the exam day the school said that the other students were needed on another boat as crew so the 2 YM candidates would be taking the exam on the boat alone. So there went all the practice of multiple crew members and pretty much all the exam prep techniques.

 

[LittleSister]

I am also a fan of the way that the RYA teaches a standard way of doing things.

That wasn't my experience on a Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Prep course (several decades ago) at all. I wouldn't know what the 'RYA standard way' was.

For pretty much every 'exercise', we tried and discussed the relative advantages and disadvantages of the techniques, for different situations, that each of us 4 students (2 CS, 2 YM) used (we were all experienced, but with very different types of experience), and the Instructor might (or might not) guide or prompt the discussion, and often suggested one or more additional techniques or considerations we might apply. Whichever of us was acting as skipper when we approached a new task would decide how we would tackle it, and then we'd discuss how that went, and then try others' alternative suggestions.

My impression was that the Instructor didn't think there was one 'correct' or 'standard' way of doing anything. He expected us each to be aware of a range of techniques, and use our judgement to apply one that we thought best suited the circumstances, the crew's and boat's capabilities, and our own preferences.

 

[mattonthesea]

That wasn't my experience on a Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Prep course (several decades ago) at all. I wouldn't know what the 'RYA standard way' was.

For pretty much every 'exercise', we tried and discussed the relative advantages and disadvantages of the techniques, for different situations, that each of us 4 students (2 CS, 2 YM) used (we were all experienced, but with very different types of experience), and the Instructor might (or might not) guide or prompt the discussion, and often suggested one or more additional techniques or considerations we might apply. Whichever of us was acting as skipper when we approached a new task would decide how we would tackle it, and then we'd discuss how that went, and then try others' alternative suggestions.

My impression was that the Instructor didn't think there was one 'correct' or 'standard' way of doing anything. He expected us each to be aware of a range of techniques, and use our judgement to apply one that we thought best suited the circumstances, the crew's and boat's capabilities, and our own preferences.

That's exactly as my YM course was as well. Having been in education for 20od years I was well impressed - a role model if ever there was one

 

[misterhino]

A further thought on RYA training, there is how very very little sailing is involved in them! Navigation yes, mooring (always almost under power) yes, weather yes but very little actual sailing. Nothing on sail trim really, sail selection, colored sails, heaving to, sailing backward, etc are not covered.

 

[NotBirdseye]

Generally, sailing instructors will spend the first day or two of a course chatting to their students and finding out what they aspire to. It's fairly straightforward to tailor the course syllabus to include practice at short handed sailing, manouvering, mob, etc.

MOB drills for single handed sailing... essential imo.

 

[Never Grumble]

Went straight to YM. Guessed there was no point in doing anything else having spent a few years navigating at sea. We bought our first boat a little while ago, wife had done CC, its all about understanding your crew and the situation and briefing appropriately. The less experience your crew has the more they require briefing and talking through the what ifs.

 

[Sandy]

That wasn't my experience on a Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Prep course (several decades ago) at all. I wouldn't know what the 'RYA standard way' was.

For pretty much every 'exercise', we tried and discussed the relative advantages and disadvantages of the techniques, for different situations, that each of us 4 students (2 CS, 2 YM) used (we were all experienced, but with very different types of experience), and the Instructor might (or might not) guide or prompt the discussion, and often suggested one or more additional techniques or considerations we might apply. Whichever of us was acting as skipper when we approached a new task would decide how we would tackle it, and then we'd discuss how that went, and then try others' alternative suggestions.

My impression was that the Instructor didn't think there was one 'correct' or 'standard' way of doing anything. He expected us each to be aware of a range of techniques, and use our judgement to apply one that we thought best suited the circumstances, the crew's and boat's capabilities, and our own preferences.

Quietly scratching my head here, how many ways can we park a boat, do a tack or gybe, or a MOB drill? We all have a range of techniques that we use to complete a task some have little tweeks on them, but fundamentally they are all the same.

Saying all of the above some of the tea served onboard has been awful.