Some thoughts on DS and CS training

[Babylon]

While the basics are all the same (e.g. you can't capsize a bowline under tension, does this particular boat lie more to the wind than the tide, why rubbish tea should be a flogging offence, etc) the application of them might differ depending on circumstances or task, crew disposition, boat type, weather conditions, and other specifics.

So, whilst I'd expect an instructor on a CC course to keep things very black and white, I'd welcome the same instructor on a CS or YM course to encourage his skippers to think in more nuanced or even creative ways, and certainly to learn from one another.

 

[awol]

I once sailed with a pair who, having newly completed their Dazed Kipper courses, tried to convince me that the only safe way to move forward to the foredeck was to sit on the coachroof and bum shuffle. They had also showed rabbit-in-headlight behaviour when being stand-on vessel. I doubt they had been taught this but it was all fresh in their minds (as were locking turns on every cleat). I would have liked to have seen how they progressed on their own boat.

 

[Sgeir]

Browsing the most recent PBO, an article about short-handed sailing prompted a discussion over breakfast about training courses.( I've done DS and CS, Sandra CC; so we can't comment on the more elevated levels of training. )

It occurred to us that all the training in the RYA courses is based on having a boat-load of reasonably together and willing crew; whereas most of us (I think?) sail with usually only our spouses or equivalent. So many of the techniques and procedures we learnt on these courses have had to be quite significantly adapted to work well with the way we normally sail. For example, on coming alongside a pontoon: on the courses, you usually have two people stepping off, with a bow line and a stern line, and maybe a couple others standing by to fend off or whatever. It took us ages to work out that with only a single crew member, trying to handle two lines is madness, and it's far better to use initially just a short line on the midships cleat, and then add the other lines when all is secure and stable (maybe we are a bit dim).

In Duncan Wells' book, the intro makes this point as well. I can't remember the exact words (my copy is on the boat, which is currently inaccessible), but it's something along the lines of "Look at this chap. He's been on a course which has taught him how to sail and he has a shiny certificate to prove it. On his course, he sailed with an instructor and 4 or 5 other trainees and now he's taking his wife and children out on a charter boat. He will most likely scare himself and them rigid, and they'll never come back again."

So... might it be a good idea if the RYA courses included stuff on "sailing as you are likely to do it", rather than "sailing with half-a dozen eager beavers"?

Steve

At Last! A recipe for shoving up the price of RYA practical courses.......

 

[capnsensible]

At Last! A recipe for shoving up the price of RYA practical courses.......

The price charged by schools for a course is down to their own business model and has got nothing to do with the RYA....

 

[WoodyP]

MOB drills for single handed sailing... essential imo.

Nearly got me there.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

What you can do is get an instructor to do the course on your own boat, with your own friends / family / partner. That way the instructor can concentrate on the kind of sailing you want to do, and teach you about the various systems you have on your boat.

The courses can be tailored to individual circumstances. But that's harder if there is a very disparate group of people on board.

Ask around and I'm sure you can find a school that can organise this.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Nearly got me there.

Keep swimming. I'll heave to then come round again.

 

[WoodyP]

And remember to keep pointing.

 

[TernVI]

My favourite is the 'RYA way' I was shown how to moor fore and aft between piles. A great way of exercising 5 people.

After I'd gone through that, I asked a bloke in my club what his method was, as he sailed singlehanded around the Solent a lot.
Arrive when there's a bit of current and use it, it's easy then.

 

[capnsensible]

My favourite is the 'RYA way' I was shown how to moor fore and aft between piles. A great way of exercising 5 people.

After I'd gone through that, I asked a bloke in my club what his method was, as he sailed singlehanded around the Solent a lot.
Arrive when there's a bit of current and use it, it's easy then.

Exactly how an instructor teaches it then. And just when it's all good for yer YM candidates, do it in astern. And for cocky instructor candidates, do it under sail in front of the Island Sailing Club, Cowes. ?

 

[Sgeir]

The price charged by schools for a course is down to their own business model and has got nothing to do with the RYA....

Indeed, but I assumed that we all would instinctively understand what the OP meant by an "RYA course". Clearly I was wrong and will in future draw a much sharper distinction between course design and course delivery.

My point was quite simply about mathematics and the impact that more individual focused practical work would have on courses. It would shove up costs and therefore prices.

 

[TernVI]

Indeed, but I assumed that we all would instinctively understand what the OP meant by an "RYA course". Clearly I was wrong and will in future draw a much sharper distinction between course design and course delivery.

My point was quite simply about mathematics and the impact that more individual focused practical work would have on courses. It would shove up costs and therefore prices.

Exactly, if you put more stuff in the syllabus, either the course gets longer or stuff gets removed.

 

[TernVI]

Exactly how an instructor teaches it then. And just when it's all good for yer YM candidates, do it in astern. And for cocky instructor candidates, do it under sail in front of the Island Sailing Club, Cowes. ?

It was a long time ago, early this century or tail end of last.
Things may have changed since then.
I've sailed with a lot of different people, including a few RYA instructors.
A lot of sailors, including some instructors, have a fixed way of doing stuff, and will tell people 'this is the correct RYA method'.
Unfortunately these people don't always agree with one another.

 

[capnsensible]

It was a long time ago, early this century or tail end of last.
Things may have changed since then.
I've sailed with a lot of different people, including a few RYA instructors.
A lot of sailors, including some instructors, have a fixed way of doing stuff, and will tell people 'this is the correct RYA method'.
Unfortunately these people don't always agree with one another.

Well as you say, so last century. Instructors are advised to show a number of different ways of doing things. The drill stuff is for dingy sailing.

One of the jobs of a school principal and chief instructor is to ensure the required standards are being achieved, it's not a free for all, it's a moderated business.

So yeah, I've been fortunate to sail with a lot of instructors at update time. And a couple of thousand customers! So I can reveal the RYA method as myth in yachting.

 

[ProMariner]

[/QUOTE]
In Duncan Wells' book, the intro makes this point as well. I can't remember the exact words (my copy is on the boat, which is currently inaccessible), but it's something along the lines of "Look at this chap. He's been on a course which has taught him how to sail and he has a shiny certificate to prove it. On his course, he sailed with an instructor and 4 or 5 other trainees and now he's taking his wife and children out on a charter boat. He will most likely scare himself and them rigid, and they'll never come back again."
[/QUOTE]

There is always someone who loads their young family into a vehicle to go for a drive to 'test their eyesight'.

I guess this kind of person will not last long in the sport of sailing anyway. I always found that the best students were the ones who came from backgrounds where self reliance and self sufficiency were built in, mountaineers and experienced travellers etc, the ones who don't sit on their hands when the unexpected occurs, and who don't consider 'phone a friend' to be a valid answer.

A 5 day course isn't going to make any idiot into a safe person to be in charge of a boat. Cruise ships exist for a reason.

Most instructors teach to the goals of the students. I still see some training boats coming alongside on day five of a course, still with 2 of the crew poised fore and aft to throw bowlines to the 2 crew preparing to jump on to the pontoon, as if it were still day one. These are the instructors who teach rigidly to a script, week in, week out. Not saying they are all ex forces, but......

People only learn how to drive once they've passed their test anyway,

 

[Never Grumble]

I guess this kind of person will not last long in the sport of sailing anyway. I always found that the best students were the ones who came from backgrounds where self reliance and self sufficiency were built in, mountaineers and experienced travellers etc, the ones who don't sit on their hands when the unexpected occurs, and who don't consider 'phone a friend' to be a valid answer.

These are the instructors who teach rigidly to a script, week in, week out. Not saying they are all ex forces, but......

I used to be a pretty handy mountaineer French Alps, Scottish winter and the like, maybe in time I'll be able to pass myself off as a sailor. Perhaps having been in the senior service counts against me ... hopefully those rigid types were from the Army

 

[Graham376]

What you can do is get an instructor to do the course on your own boat, with your own friends / family / partner. That way the instructor can concentrate on the kind of sailing you want to do, and teach you about the various systems you have on your boat.

The courses can be tailored to individual circumstances. But that's harder if there is a very disparate group of people on board.

Ask around and I'm sure you can find a school that can organise this.

Having bought a Centaur with only comp crew under my belt and wanting to get it from Solent to N Wales, I got own boat tuition via school, then instructor and I did DS course on sail (just the two of us) to Conwy. A few years later, having only sailed with SWMBO, I did the YM exam. My problem was in delegating as not used to being mob handed but, OTOH compared to other candidates who had sailed mostly as crew, had no problems with passage planning and pilotage.

 

[arc1]

why rubbish tea should be a flogging offence, etc)

Devils drink so didn't even think about having it onboard. Queue mutiny when tea drinking sailing friend only realised after we'd slipped. Bad coffee on the other hand...

 

[mattonthesea]

MOB drills for single handed sailing... essential imo.

Hamlet cigar?

 

[sgr143]

In Duncan Wells' book,... "Look at this chap.... He will most likely scare himself and them rigid, and they'll never come back again." [/QUOTE]
I guess this kind of person will not last long in the sport of sailing anyway. I always found that the best students were the ones who came from backgrounds where self reliance and self sufficiency were built in, mountaineers and experienced travellers etc, the ones who don't sit on their hands when the unexpected occurs, and who don't consider 'phone a friend' to be a valid answer.[/QUOTE]

Me again, the OP. Before I started sailing, I'd been a caver for about 30 years, with forays into diving (open water and cave), gliding and a bit of climbing. I still cave a bit, but I've got a bit rickety for the hard stuff. These activities have quite a range of ways in how they are taught and certified, from a very loose club-based apprenticeship-type system in caving, to the quite formalised BSAC and BGA systems for their respective sports.

When I've taken beginner cavers on trips, I've always made a point of putting them in the lead where possible, asking "what would you do if..?" ("I fell over and knocked myself out" for one) and "remember this bit because it's an important junction for when you lead the trip next time", and so on. Actual technique teaching was limited to using a rope off a bridge for how to abseil and prusik before trying it out underground. Otherwise, you learnt the rest on the job, so to speak. A lot of the "teaching" though was through yarns in pubs and club meetings, of the "do you remember when <accident / near miss / incompetence / silly thing> happened, and what we did?".

This kind of works fine, until you get people with less than the usual amount of common sense, who don't hang around the club scene / pubs enough, maybe, to pick up on the words of wisdom.

I was was going to ramble on about various times when supposedly intelligent cavers have shown an utter lack of common sense, leading to unnecessary rescue call outs ("Did you go and see if their car was still there?"), phone calls from mountain tops at midnight to ask advice for minor medical issues, and so on. But this is a sailing forum, so I'll spare you!

I guess what I might draw from this wide range of ways I've experienced of teaching and learning outdoor-type activities where there's some element of danger and where the unexpected may always throw a spanner just where you least need it: You can't teach common sense and self-reliance but you can help things along ; If you want to learn how to do something, hang out with people who know how to do it (buy them beer).

Steve