Solent Coast Guard on Strike tonight

[jonjo]

I am sure I am not alone in saying 'more power to your elbow',

Count me out. The last CG work to rule only served to highlight how little genuine urgent traffic there is on the airwaves. The UK only needs 4 primary CG centres for commercial traffic management Dover, Falmouth plus two up north. Leisure and coastal traffic could be covered by a UK South and North centre located anywhere with a good datalink though Brixham may as well be utilized as the base for UK south.

The current disposition of CG centres is an historical accident and makes no sense.

 

[chanelyacht]

Count me out. The last CG work to rule only served to highlight how little genuine urgent traffic there is on the airwaves. The UK only needs 4 primary CG centres for commercial traffic management Dover, Falmouth plus two up north. Leisure and coastal traffic could be covered by a UK South and North centre located anywhere with a good datalink though Brixham may as well be utilized as the base for UK south.

The current disposition of CG centres is an historical accident and makes no sense.

Really?

And your operational experience and risk assessments for saying that are?

PS. We don't do traffic management - apart from the Dover Straits. And at least 80% of our work is leisure / coastal. Oh, and the "historical accident" is that the stations are in the areas of highest workload / risk, as reviewed many times through the years - hence the closures of Lands End, Hartland, Moray, Shoreham, Oban, Tyne, and Orkney and others over the years. We are probably the most reviewed part of the civil service.

We accept change is needed - in fact we've been asking for proper change for years. The fact that the closing stations are those with highest workload, and the ones staying open are doing so by political lobbying / expediency rather than sound operational reasoning, (including the most expensive station to run in the whole lot) is another matter.

 

[robertj]

Really?

And your operational experience and risk assessments for saying that are?

PS. We don't do traffic management - apart from the Dover Straits. And at least 80% of our work is leisure / coastal. Oh, and the "historical accident" is that the stations are in the areas of highest workload / risk, as reviewed many times through the years - hence the closures of Lands End, Hartland, Moray, Shoreham, Oban, Tyne, and Orkney and others over the years. We are probably the most reviewed part of the civil service.

Alot of people that I've chatted to about the CG situation is 'who cares' and 'they get money for old rope' others are sympethetic to their cause.
But why should resources be wasted as the governments own review highlighted the cuts will indeed better the CG service in operating in a structured cost effective way?

 

[chanelyacht]

But why should resources be wasted as the governments own review highlighted the cuts will indeed better the CG service in operating in a structured cost effective way?

Not what the Transport Select Committee said.

Not what Lord Donaldson of Lymington said when reviewing previous merger / supercentre plans.

No-one is talking about wasting money - unless of course you're talking about ploughing cash into the white elephant fire control centre which we seem to have picked up along the way.

 

[robertj]

Not what the Transport Select Committee said.

Not what Lord Donaldson of Lymington said when reviewing previous merger / supercentre plans.

No-one is talking about wasting money - unless of course you're talking about ploughing cash into the white elephant fire control centre which we seem to have picked up along the way.

I think we're all guilty of (me included) that we know better than the experts, we don't!
They know their plan of action very well and and we are not in view of the overall picture as objectivel as much as the government and it's impartial experts.

Regarding the fire control centres this was as you put it a slight mistake but this folly has been put to bed now and judgements now are informed and headed to.
Costs must be reduced and who else can expertly identify and correct/alter them?

 

[chanelyacht]

They know their plan of action very well

If only. Trust me, from being at the sharp end, very little in the plan has been thought through fully - which is why we can't get answers on anything, and we still haven't been told things that we were promised a year ago.

Regarding the fire control centres this was as you put it a slight mistake but this folly has been put to bed now and judgements now are informed and headed to.

Which is why the empty centres are still costing taxpayers millions.

Costs must be reduced

The MCA is losing 30% of its budget over the next four years. We have lost, already, VHFDF, tugs, fire fighting teams. There comes a point when things break.

who else can expertly identify and correct/alter them?

Those of us doing the job day in day out, with years of SAR experience perhaps?

 

[Chrusty 1]

Chanelyacht,

I am sure I am not alone in saying 'more power to your elbow', the CG cuts are just another example of the erosion of common sense, let alone treating motivated people decently.

The withdrawal of rescue tugs and closing of stations has 'accountant' written all over it, and absolutely zero evidence of seamanship or learning the lessons of history.

I left BAe when that sub-species took hold, if you ever get a Mayday from a boatload of accountants ( there must be a collective noun but I doubt it's repeatable here ) do us all a favour and just leave it to Darwin !

Oh I don't know.........T W A T S will do nicely!

 

[Searush]

Channel Yacht;
I wouldn't take too much notice of RobertJ, he clearly thinks the current Govt & the upper echelon of civil serpants are marvels of knowledge, understanding & efficiency - which would be a World's first!

To help you have an insight into his mindset, he has kindly started this thread elsewhere. Now is that a Troll or just daft?

 

[chanelyacht]

Channel Yacht;
I wouldn't take too much notice of RobertJ, he clearly thinks the current Govt & the upper echelon of civil serpants are marvels of knowledge, understanding & efficiency - which would be a World's first!

To help you have an insight into his mindset, he has kindly started this thread elsewhere. Now is that a Troll or just daft?

Not sure about that other thread, but when people post things that look half plausible, I so try and counter them with actual facts...

Unfashionable things facts, I know, but they are still alive somewhere

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Oh I don't know.........T W A T S will do nicely!

A joke: -

An Indian Gentleman is sight seeing in Edinburgh and walking down Princess Street but he is bit a lost. He walks up to an old lady and asks, "can you show me your hairy twa't please?" "Ohh you horrible man", she exclaims and runs off. Confused the Indian Gentleman continues on down Princess Street and asks a another lady for assistance, "can you please show me your hairy twa't?" which is received with the same incredulous shock! Its getting late now and he has worked his way up to Rose Street, where he meets a lady of charm. "Please madam, I am getting desperate, can you please show me your hairy twa't", he pleads. "Aye, oh right no problem Gupta" and she proceeds to lift her skit exposing her hairy twa't. "No, No", shrieks the Indian Gentleman, "Show me you Herriot Watt University!"





Is that the time, I'll just be off then.

 

[Chrusty 1]

A joke: -

An Indian Gentleman is sight seeing in Edinburgh and walking down Princess Street but he is bit a lost. He walks up to an old lady and asks, "can you show me your hairy twa't please?" "Ohh you horrible man", she exclaims and runs off. Confused the Indian Gentleman continues on down Princess Street and asks a another lady for assistance, "can you please show me your hairy twa't?" which is received with the same incredulous shock! Its getting late now and he has worked his way up to Rose Street, where he meets a lady of charm. "Please madam, I am getting desperate, can you please show me your hairy twa't", he pleads. "Aye, oh right no problem Gupta" and she proceeds to lift her skit exposing her hairy twa't. "No, No", shrieks the Indian Gentleman, "Show me you Herriot Watt University!"





Is that the time, I'll just be off then.

It looses it's meaning in the written form, it's one that needs telling in the pub after a few bevvys

 

[jonjo]

Really?

And your operational experience and risk assessments for saying that are?

The danger to our triple A credit rating. The Government still has to borrow an extra £110 billion per year to make ends meet. If the AAA rating is lost the result will be a 5% pay cut across the whole public sector like Ireland. To avert the crisis money has to be saved, the thumb twiddlers of the CG are an obvious target for cost savings.

As a regular Solent 16 listener I know that the poor salaries have resulted in a service staffed with people who do not have the capacity to deal with the unexpected, this constitutes a danger. The best option within the scope of a fixed budget is to collapse the network down geographically and deliver the service from a better paid core of competence.

I know that in the past 15 years there have been phenomenal advances in data comms that allow Indian offshoring for example. Having 19 stations scattered around the coast performing a blind microphone comms task is absurd in 2012.

The small watch crew in each of the 19 stations is a danger in its own right. Queuing theory tells us each station can quick become overwhelmed whereas half the number of staff coalesced into 6 stations would not, it is a statistical certainty.

PS. We don't do traffic management - apart from the Dover Straits.

Why did I hear every ship passing through the Lands End TSS calling in for permission last time I crossed?

As to the alleged busy stations, this could be eliminated at a stroke if we adopted the french policy of billing leisure boaters for their avoidable mishaps. The Coast Guard should not treated as the free Sunseekers marine breakdown service for the rich.

 

[Chrusty 1]

The danger to our triple A credit rating. The Government still has to borrow an extra £110 billion per year to make ends meet. If the AAA rating is lost the result will be a 5% pay cut across the whole public sector like Ireland. To avert the crisis money has to be saved, the thumb twiddlers of the CG are an obvious target for cost savings.

As a regular Solent 16 listener I know that the poor salaries have resulted in a service staffed with people who do not have the capacity to deal with the unexpected, this constitutes a danger. The best option within the scope of a fixed budget is to collapse the network down geographically and deliver the service from a better paid core of competence.

I know that in the past 15 years there have been phenomenal advances in data comms that allow Indian offshoring for example. Having 19 stations scattered around the coast performing a blind microphone comms task is absurd in 2012.

The small watch crew in each of the 19 stations is a danger in its own right. Queuing theory tells us each station can quick become overwhelmed whereas half the number of staff coalesced into 6 stations would not, it is a statistical certainty.


Why did I hear every ship passing through the Lands End TSS calling in for permission last time I crossed?

As to the alleged busy stations, this could be eliminated at a stroke if we adopted the french policy of billing leisure boaters for their avoidable mishaps. The Coast Guard should not treated as the free Sunseekers marine breakdown service for the rich.

Niether should the RNLI!

 

[chanelyacht]

The danger to our triple A credit rating. The Government still has to borrow an extra £110 billion per year to make ends meet. If the AAA rating is lost the result will be a 5% pay cut across the whole public sector like Ireland. To avert the crisis money has to be saved, the thumb twiddlers of the CG are an obvious target for cost savings.

As a regular Solent 16 listener I know that the poor salaries have resulted in a service staffed with people who do not have the capacity to deal with the unexpected, this constitutes a danger. The best option within the scope of a fixed budget is to collapse the network down geographically and deliver the service from a better paid core of competence.

I know that in the past 15 years there have been phenomenal advances in data comms that allow Indian offshoring for example. Having 19 stations scattered around the coast performing a blind microphone comms task is absurd in 2012.

The small watch crew in each of the 19 stations is a danger in its own right. Queuing theory tells us each station can quick become overwhelmed whereas half the number of staff coalesced into 6 stations would not, it is a statistical certainty.


Why did I hear every ship passing through the Lands End TSS calling in for permission last time I crossed?

As to the alleged busy stations, this could be eliminated at a stroke if we adopted the french policy of billing leisure boaters for their avoidable mishaps. The Coast Guard should not treated as the free Sunseekers marine breakdown service for the rich.

Ignoring your deliberately offensive and ignorant comments (thumb twiddlers, denegrating of staff capabilities), you have a large number of factual errors in what you say.

As for the CG being "an obvious target to avert the crisis" do you have any idea how small our budget is, in the DfT alone, let alone the whole scheme of government. For example, the fire control project wasted 4 1/2 years worth of the MCAs budget, and HMCG is only a small part of that.

Firstly, as an "experienced Solent listener" you clearly only see half the picture. Even if you're also listening (illegally) to Ch0 and Ch99, you still don't see all that goes on - taskings for ambulance and police, missing person searches, local resilience work, etc. To describe the job as "blind microphone comms" is a ridiculous understatement. To see the amount of search planning one job can create might make you change your idea.

The other big vulnerability is however good the MRCC, whether there are 20 of them or 1, the weak point is the coastal aerial network, and this isn't changing at all.

As for "queueing theory", you forget that unless your supercentres still have people qualified by local area, in which case you're back to small teams, you introduce the vulnerability of loss of local knowledge. Even air traffic control only qualify people for certain sectors - there is no large pool of people used for ad hoc tasks.

Yes, there is some slack in the system - there has to be - and no-one is seriously saying that every centre should remain. There are some good things in the changes - which, incidentally, are not cost driven.

With regard to Lands End TSS, the ship reports taken by Falmouth are for pollution monitoring - active vessel traffic management is a very different thing, and only carried out (at considerable investment cost) by Dover CNIS.

Interesting you mention the French model - of course, the French CG do not charge for anything, that is a decision by their SNSM (RNLI equivalent). When the UK operated tugs, they were charged to owners on the same basis.

Other parallels with the French (a system which has a lot going for it) which you do not mention are :

5 MRCCs and no supercentres,
Over 50 coastal signal stations, 60% of which are 24/7, all of which have radar (we don't), VHFDF (we don't) and are staffed by paid people (we have the NCI in places),
3 tugs on permanent standby (we don't).

For less than their budget, we also provide 400 coast rescue teams around the country.

So, if your idea is to model us on the French system, I'd be very happy with that. But you won't save money by doing so.

Oh, and sunseekers cause us very little work, but it's always nice to have the view of a boater. I'm always pleased to meet rich people (you are rich, aren't you? Of course, by your definition, you have a boat, you must be...)

 

[chanelyacht]

Niether should the RNLI!

OK, maybe I need to be crystal clear on this one.

When we ask a lifeboat ops manager to launch, they will challenge that request. Before we do so, we will put out an "any vessel" broadcast, and explore other options - SeaStart if available, etc. We only "immediate launch" lifeboats to situations of grave and imminent danger.

Helicopters are never - never - launched to breakdowns. They're carp at towing for a start...

The RNLI make the call whether to go or not. They can, and do, refuse service in some cases. Either way, it's their call. The same goes for independent lifeboats.

If the RNLI wished to start charging, they would.

 

[Evadne]

We are probably the most reviewed part of the civil service.

I'll have you know that there is an awful lot of competition for that tag. My institute (in the science sector) has had a major review of one sort or another nearly every year for the last ten or twenty years, on average. It is the way British management is trained these days (or not), every time a new regime takes charge somewhere, whether it's government or senior management, they institute a review, set about changing everything and nothing then move on leaving the next lot to repeat the cycle. cf Caius Petronius, 66AD, I have his quote hanging above my desk:


"We trained hard ... but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization"

There is no hope, really.

 

[Seajet]

Cutting the Coastguard is just another sign of these corrupt times; they cut ambulances, hospitals, OAP homes, schools, defence - remember HMS Ark Royal and Harriers, the aircraft which won the Falklands and saved Thatchers' political arse ?! We have just given away 72 of the modern updated GR9 version...

Caring for ones' fellow man is obviously very passe in Camerfool's circles.

Strangely enough none of these things really hit one, if one is a millionaire Old Etonian; funny that...

 

[chanelyacht]

Strangely enough none of these things really hit one, if one is a millionaire Old Etonian; funny that...

Oh I dunno, the sea can sink even the poshest boats

 

[jonjo]

To describe the job as "blind microphone comms" is a ridiculous understatement. To see the amount of search planning one job can create might make you change your idea.

Unfortunately, from your perspective, your CG Management let the TV crews in and demonstrated how your institution tries to turn a storm in a teacup into an expensive drama. Do you recall the 22 year old in Dover who had a spat with his family, drank half a bottle of brandy and went for a walk. From this scant info Dover Coastguard pressed the major alert button, we saw a lifeboat launch, a helo in the air, police squad cars dashing around Dover like demented ants. I reckon the event dragged in 50 people, all for a disturbed drunk who proceeded to walk off his frustrations and return home.

Your institution is culturally oriented to creating make-believe work to justify its presence, this has been debated here over the years.

CG66 is a waste of time and little more than a admin creation scheme.

The other big vulnerability is however good the MRCC, whether there are 20 of them or 1, the weak point is the coastal aerial network, and this isn't changing at all.

So no defence for those claiming the current 19 stations should be retained?

As for "queueing theory", you forget that unless your supercentres still have people qualified by local area

I was waiting for that one, again a fallacy, local residency does not equate to useful local maritime knowledge especially given the type of people recruited by the CG.

I can still recall the exasperation in the voice of a RNLI rib coxswain in Devon when some CG woman had been bleating on for 40 minutes trying to make contact with the lifeboat on C16. What he effectively said was “look here you daft bimbo, you tasked me to look for a dog stranded at the bottom of a steep cliff, now think where is the nearest aerial? Do you remember VHF is line of sight so how to you expect me to reply??? So shut up and let me do what you asked me to do”.

I can cite another case in the Solent, old 45ft classic boat had lost some rudder control. There was a full spring ebb tide flowing past Yarmouth coupled with a NE force 6. The casualty was maintaining some control in deep water off Yarmouth and was then instructed to deploy an anchor. That would have made an iffy situation worse.

In five years I have only once heard a CG officer go off computer script and demonstrate a useful intelligent appreciation of a distress situation.

Interesting you mention the French model - of course, the French CG do not charge for anything, that is a decision by their SNSM (RNLI equivalent).

Robin’s account of his engine failure near the Raz does not match your assertion. He was not immediately in peril so the French CG arranged a commercial tow from a passing fishing boat for a few hundred euros. Many leisure boat calls for help could be handled this way by the UK Coastguard and would in the long run discourage frivolous use of the service and skimped small boat maintenance. It is time of the nanny state UK CG to dishout out some tough love to small boat skippers.

5 MRCCs and no supercentres,

I am suggesting 6 would suit the UK.

By your own admission in another post, 6 centres have been closed over recent years and you agree more closures can be justified. But why continue the piecemeal and chaotic contraction? Given the national financial crisis we face, now would be a good time to wipe the slate clean and establish from first principals what is needed.

I have not heard a good argument against operating the UK CG from Dover, Falmouth, Holyhead? and Scotland. Plus 2 inshore specialist centres at say Portland and the Humber labelled UK South and UK North. All full time, all staffed with people on better salaries plus, here is the important bit, CG Officers capable of deviating from a computer script in a distress situation.

During the reorg you should also sort out your pitiful weather forecasts, they are the laziest most non-committal and stale forecasts issued in north Europe.

 

[Chrusty 1]

OK, maybe I need to be crystal clear on this one.

When we ask a lifeboat ops manager to launch, they will challenge that request. Before we do so, we will put out an "any vessel" broadcast, and explore other options - SeaStart if available, etc. We only "immediate launch" lifeboats to situations of grave and imminent danger.

Helicopters are never - never - launched to breakdowns. They're carp at towing for a start...

The RNLI make the call whether to go or not. They can, and do, refuse service in some cases. Either way, it's their call. The same goes for independent lifeboats.

If the RNLI wished to start charging, they would.

Sorry, I think you took what I said the wrong way and with Jonjo's posts I can see why. I was actually referring to what seems to be some peoples attitude that the RNLI is like the RAC or the AA. Didn't mean to rattle your cage.