Smartbank battery management

Re: Ahhh...

Hmm, all I see here is flannel. I am prepared to be educated but not interested in someone who thinks that throwing a few long words around will scare me into silence.

Alarm bells rang with talk of TVs and CD players, I don't think anyone will disagree that information can be sent down a wire, but that requires a device at each end. If this system is simply plugged into the boat's power, as apears to be the case, then what is it doing ? Periodically pulling a current and measuring voltage change ? I have no idea if that would work, but if you have a genuine case then please inform us and do not bullsh1t us.
 
Re: You see, credibility is the issue...

Only just caught up with this as someone kindly emailed it to me.

Just for the record, Chris Gibson is trusted by the world's inverter and charging systems manufactuers. In fact, he's been involved with the development of many leading marine electrical products. He's understanding is at a far more fundamental level than many other so called experts. I do agree however, that "Split Charge Diodes Don't Work" on his website is a a bit of a wild statement - they do. However, Diodes have some serious drawbacks corrected by more advanced split charging methods. Chris is right by saying that alternator corntollers aren't required on modern systems - if the system is designed correctly in the first place (using zero loss split charging devices and low resistance batteries for example) - proof of this is that just about every emergency vehicle in europe hasn't used diode splitters for over 5 years now (they must be getting it right - broken down ambulances etc isn't good PR).

Had you asked me 6 months ago "Can you could calculate capacity according to voltage?" my answer would be yes if no load was applied to the battery. With load, I would have replied that a battery state meter (with shunt for amps and AH calculations such as the Link 10) would be needed. I simply would not have believed it possible measuring voltage alone (the SmartGauge doesn't just measure voltage incidently). However, when Chris sent me a unit, it was tested against a Vanner Battery Monitor (around £10'000 worth - designed specifically for testing batteries), a Link 10, BEP DCM600 and a Victron BMV. We tested it under various types of load, battery sizes, types etc. After 3-4 cycles (this is needed for the SmartGauge to learn about the battery - and the key to a shuntless design), we found that the SmartGauge was (overall) more accurate than the shunt based meters. We did find that at the upper and lower limits (around 85% SOC and 40% SOC) the shunt based meters were slightly more accurate but we are only talking a couple of %. The unit simply isn't an expensive volt meter and doesn't run out of synch after 10 or so cycles. The alogorythm (think thats spelt correctly!) was designed by a professor of mathematics from the Manchester University of Technology in conjunction with some top battery people.

Hope this helps!
 
Re: You see, credibility is the issue...

OK, but I still have zero information on how this thing works beyond:

<<The alogorythm (think thats spelt correctly!) was designed by a professor of mathematics from the Manchester University of Technology in conjunction with some top battery people.>>

I am sorry to say that this is still saying, 'trust me it was done by clever people'. So it may have some clever processing, that's fine, what is it processing ?

Please believe me, I am not trying to pick a fight or be difficult. I am fully prepared to learn something here.

(PS it's algorithm. And I have never heard of Manchester University of Technology, do you mean ex - UMIST?)

sniff...sniff....sniff...
 
Thanks, James...

Thanks for that info, James. Interesting that you agree on the "Split charge diodes do not work" claim!

You mention the Link 10 meter, and mention running out of sync. This is a common criticism, but isn't it true that the Link 10 automatically resets itself providing the parameters have been correctly set and providing the batteries are fully recharged? Mine does this happily all the time; I've never needed to reset it.

Good to know that the SmartGauge was accurate in your tests. However, I've been told that the SmartGauge doesn't give an accurate reading during charging. Is this true? I'd have thought that it would be very desirable to have an accurate state of charge readout whilst charging. Seems a bit messy to have to turn the engine off, for example, to get an accurate state of charge reading.
 
Re: You see, credibility is the issue...

I can see your point.

Yes the university involved was UMIST. I've again spoken to Chris about the posts here. The unit does use other methods of determining battery capacity - however, the details are proprietory and he (quite rightly) doesn't want to share them after sinking three years work (and considerable funds) into the product. I guess it would be the same as me asking my car's manufacturers for intimate details about their proprietory engine management software(!)
 
Re: Thanks, James...

No worries...

I wasn't agreeing with the "Split Charge Diodes Don't Work" statement, however, I do know where he is coming from... They do work but not as well as other bits of kit out there.

The Link 10 should reset IF the parameters are set up properly. However, it's buried within the advanced programming for the unit. The unit leaves the factory set for a std installation of 200AH so for most boat owners it works out of the box. I have a Link2000 on my boat (the same as a Link 10 but with inverter/charger control functions - even with the parameters correctly set, I still have to regularly reset it (possibly due to temperature, battery age etc)). The DCM600's programming is considerably easier.

Not sure who told you that about SmartGauge - I will need to check on this (it certainly didn't come up in our own tests), the unit has literally only started shipping. Our testing is still ongoing (for another week or so - we simply won't realease product on the market without it) and have yet to decide on final packaging, case design etc.

We'll have SmartGauge on our stand at the London Boat Show for everyone to play with - should be interesting to watch the punch ups!!! Also, we will have the first completely customisable solar panel system - imagine being able to fit a walk on solar cell anywhere on your deck/hatch!

Cheers - James
 
Re: Thanks, James...

Thanks for confirming what I said about the Link 10. As ever, it's a case of RTFM if anything's going to work correctly!

Talking of manuals, I just looked at the SmartGauge owner's manual, and this confirms that the SmartGauge can't measure the state of charge properly during charging and therefore isn't totally accurate during charging. It says "It will be within 10% of the actual battery charge status". It also says that "it could be that SmartGauge shows the charge status to have reached (as a worst case example) 100% when in actual fact the batteries have only reached 90%" and recommends "do not shut the charger down when charge status meter indicates 100% charge status. Instead, rely upon the charger, which can reach a much more accurate measurement of when the batteries are actually fully charged". This rather seems to partially defeat the purpose of having a battery monitor.

Technology (especially proprietary technology) is all very well, but we boaters generally want value for money as well. You’ve reassured us that the £150 SmartGauge has about the same accuracy as a decent amp-hour meter. But is it good value? For £179 (inc delivery) doesn’t the Xantrex Link 10 offer a lot more value for money? It’s got similar accuracy, it includes an ammeter so you can actually see the charging current, it has an amp-hour counter so you can see how much power you’re using/restoring, it has an “at a glance” LED state of charge indicator, it can show time remaining until recharging is needed, it stores historical data, it has an auto-dim display, and – best of all – it works just as well when the batteries are being charged.
 
SmartGauge......

I emailed Merlin Equipment about this and James Hortop actually appeared here on this forum!

pvb said:

"[smartGauge] is simply a fancy voltmeter"

pvb later said:

"Why not ask Merlin Equipment, Russell? They handle a wide range of electrical equipment (including products from SmartGauge) and would be able to advise you. Their Marine Sales Manager, James Hortop, is a specialist contributor to Practical Boat Owner on marine electrical topics, and I'm sure you'd be able to trust his recommendations"

Thus endorsing James Hortop's opinion.

And James Hortop said:

"However, when Chris sent me a unit, it was tested against a Vanner Battery Monitor (around £10'000 worth - designed specifically for testing batteries), a Link 10, BEP DCM600 and a Victron BMV. We tested it under various types of load, battery sizes, types etc. After 3-4 cycles (this is needed for the SmartGauge to learn about the battery - and the key to a shuntless design), we found that the SmartGauge was (overall) more accurate than the shunt based meters. We did find that at the upper and lower limits (around 85% SOC and 40% SOC) the shunt based meters were slightly more accurate but we are only talking a couple of %. The unit simply isn't an expensive volt meter and doesn't run out of synch after 10 or so cycles"

pvb said:

"Interesting that you agree on the "Split charge diodes do not work" claim!"

And James Hortop said:

"I wasn't agreeing with the "Split Charge Diodes Don't Work" statement, however, I do know where he is coming from... They do work but not as well as other bits of kit out there"

pvb said:

"However, I've been told that the SmartGauge doesn't give an accurate reading during charging. Is this true? I'd have thought that it would be very desirable to have an accurate state of charge readout whilst charging. Seems a bit messy to have to turn the engine off, for example, to get an accurate state of charge reading"

Which is probably in response to the section in the owners manual that (capitals are mine):-

"During charging this is not possible due to the presence of the charger preventing SmartGauge ever getting
an opportunity to actually MEASURE the charge status. In effect, if it tried, it would be attempting to measure
the charge status of the charger. During charging, SmartGauge only shows the CALCULATED charge status AS DOES AN AMP HOURS COUNTER however SmartGauge, because it operates on a different principle, calculates a
charge status that is MUCH MORE ACCURATE. For this reason, it is possible that, during the charge cycle, the
charge status displayed may not be TOTALLY accurate. It will be within 10% of the actual battery charge
status. This may seem like nothing (and is infinitely more accurate than an amp hours counter may show
which could be literally HUNDREDS OF AMP HOURS ADRIFT), but it can have certain consequences.

(in practice my unit shows nowhere near this level of error)

So in summary:-

1. pvb was wrong when he said "is simply a fancy voltmeter" as confirmed by James Hortop (who pvb recommended someone ask)

2 Smartgauge need to change the statement to "Split Charge Diodes Don't Work PROPERLY"

pvb then tried to berate the unit with the statement about not showing accurate charge status during charging, without actually reading what is written about it by the bloke who actually designed it.

I wonder if pvb will now admit that he was wrong and should not have said "is simply a fancy voletemer" without actually knowing the facts?

I wonder if the same conclusion can be drawn regarding his statement that "[smartbank] is simply a bi directional VSR"?

Dave
 
Re: Thanks, James...

[ QUOTE ]
Talking of manuals, I just looked at the SmartGauge owner's manual, and this confirms that the SmartGauge can't measure the state of charge properly during charging and therefore isn't totally accurate during charging. It says "It will be within 10% of the actual battery charge status". It also says that "it could be that SmartGauge shows the charge status to have reached (as a worst case example) 100% when in actual fact the batteries have only reached 90%" and recommends "do not shut the charger down when charge status meter indicates 100% charge status. Instead, rely upon the charger, which can reach a much more accurate measurement of when the batteries are actually fully charged". This rather seems to partially defeat the purpose of having a battery monitor.

I notice with great interest that you carefully clipped the part where it says:-

"SmartGauge will certainly give a very good indication (certainly better than an amp hours counter....."

For those who want the unbiased story here is the paragraph in its entirety:-

"For this reason it may not be wise to place too much faith in the charge status during charging. SmartGauge
will certainly give a very good indication (certainly better than an amp hours counter &#8211; and certainly better
than a volt meter [which will tell you nothing more than that the batteries are charging]) but it could be that
SmartGauge shows the charge status to have reached (as a worst case example) 100% when in actual fact
the batteries have only reached 90%"

It's not nice and it's dishonest to clip out the bits that don't agree with your contentions.

Dave
 
Re: Thanks, James...

Yes, the Link 10 has more features. However, most people simply want a unit that gives a reasonably accurate snapshot of capacity. The SmartGauge does this - also it only needs a simple two wire installation and very basic programming.

I think that if you know how to properly use a Link 10/DCM (RTFM indeed!) you can get more useful information (eg net current is important to know if you are to determine if say, a wind turbine is coping with the fridge) but the SmartGauge gives that simple Capacity Remaining figure - I guess it's horses for courses. The SmartGauge price is likely to fall as volumes pick up.

While we're on it, we've never seriously marketed the SmartBank to the boating community as a simple VSR is generally adequate (we mainly sell it to automotive users). However, in systems where capacity Vs charging ability is very marginal, SmartBank is ideal as you can set up connect/disconnect voltages and hold time. The unit also has an emergency parallel feature. The SmartBank can also cope with triple bank systems and can be coupled with v. large contactors.
 
Do try to keep up......

[ QUOTE ]
pvb then tried to berate the unit with the statement about not showing accurate charge status during charging, without actually reading what is written about it by the bloke who actually designed it.


[/ QUOTE ]
If you'd read my previous post you'd see that I have read the manual. And I think the bits I quoted are rather more telling than the bits you chose to quote! As for the claim that "an amp hours counter ... could be literally HUNDREDS OF AMP HOURS ADRIFT", I'd take that with a big pinch of salt too. At the end of the day, the buyers will decide what represents best value.
 
Re: Do try to keep up......

[ QUOTE ]

If you'd read my previous post you'd see that I have read the manual. And I think the bits I quoted are rather more telling than the bits you chose to quote! As for the claim that "an amp hours counter ... could be literally HUNDREDS OF AMP HOURS ADRIFT", I'd take that with a big pinch of salt too. At the end of the day, the buyers will decide what represents best value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I now see where you are coming from....

Because you did not know that more than voltage can be measured over 2 wires, and because you had never seen a smartgauge you decided (without any evidence) that it could not work and therefore told people quite categorically that the unit "is simply a fancy voltmeter"

James Hortop put a stop to you on that point. You were wrong.

Because you have never seen an amp hours counter that is hundreds of amp hours adrift you decided it could happen. It can and does happen. You were wrong.

I dare you, go on, admit it.

Dave
 
Re: Do try to keep up......

hey hey... careful with my name... I'm staying objective here - I sell both sets of units so can hopefully give an unbiased view. PVB is usually right on most things..... you two should kiss and make up (bet your boats are moored up next to each other!)! Look forward to seeing you both at the Boatshow
 
You need a new keyboard.....

Think you need a new keyboard...
A.jpg

Only 7 posts, and you're practically apoplectic! It's only a forum at the end of the day - the idea is to exchange views. You won't agree with all of them. Might be safer for you to take up something more restful; painting is said to be therapeutic.
 
Re: Do try to keep up......

Sorry James.

Is Smartgauge "simply a fancy voltmeter"?

Can amp hours counters run out of synchronisation?

Dave
 
Re: Do try to keep up......

Dave you are right but I too would have agreed with PVB (had I not known about SmartGauge) considering that every other "State Of Charge Meter" that uses just two wires (sold by most chandlers) is just a volt meter with an E and F mark instead of a voltage reading...

Hope you two have a decent wine collection.... I need a drink :-o
 
Re: You need a new keyboard.....

[ QUOTE ]
the idea is to exchange views. You won't agree with all of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

"[smartgauge] is simply a fancy voltmeter" is not a 'view'.

It is a statement of incorrect fact.

"[smartbank] is simply a bi directional VSR" is not a 'view'

It is a statement of incorrect fact.

It would be far more honourable to admit that you were wrong, that you have been corrected by more than one person (both of whom have experience of both devices) and appreciative that you have learned something.

Dave
 
Re: You need a new keyboard.....

I hope we havent got too much of this to come in the near future.

This I am right, admit you were wrong , go on admit it, I dare you stuff is just pure churlishness.

It is not a p1ssing contest, and is sadly getting a little more prevalent now that boats are out of the water again.

Your father was a Hamster, and your Mother smells of elderberries.....
 
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