Smartbank battery management

[James_Hortop]

Re: You need a new keyboard.....

One final point... There IS another two wire only State Of Charge meter I know of.. It's made by Midtronics, specifically for testing batteries - it costs about £1000 and uses AC impedance to test.... Just about every Ford, Vauxhall, BMW, Mercedes etc etc dealer has one...

 

[Chris_W_Gibson]

Another view - VERY long.

You may recognise my name.

James Hortop alerted me to this thread and forum. I felt it fair to present some further information from my side which may help clear a few things up.

This won't come in any particular order of importance.

I do not discount the use of amp hours counters. I use one on my own boat. Whilst I (being of a technical bent) can understand it and get the best from it, my girlfriend and children cannot. To them, the device is useless, they simply cannot understand what it is telling them, let alone how to correctly set the device up. They would be left completely in the dark (perhaps literally) if the device ran out of sync.

I am not new to this business. I ran (in fact owned) the UK technical service centre, and the central technical point for all of Europe, for Heart Interface and Cruising Equipment (manufacturers of the Link 10) for over 10 years and spent a great proportion of such time giving technical support to owners of the entire range of Cruising Equipment amp hours counters, from the original amp hour plus right through to the Link 2000R.

It became very apparent, very early on, that for many people these devices were of no use whatsoever. The problem of them running out of sync with the batteries is not a *theoretical* problem that may *sometimes* happen, it is a very *real* problem that causes *huge* problems for a *huge* number of users.

During my time giving this technical support I looked very carefully into the reasons for the amp hours counters running adrift.

The reasons are many, far more numerous than "not setting the unit up correctly initially" or "not fully recharging". Here I list just a few of them.....

Peukert's effect makes a huge difference to the results these devices give. Peukert's exponent changes throughout the life of a battery. Initially, during the first few tens of cycles it decreases. It then stabilises for a few tens of cycles, it then starts to increase. So unless tests are done regularly to calculate the new Peukert's exponent, the amp hours counter will begin to run adrift.

As batteries age, their capacity falls. Amp hours counters cannot track this. So after 3 years of use, your amp hours counter may tell you that you are regularly discharging your 600 amp hour battery to 300 amp hours (50% capacity - the sensible limit). Whereas in actual fact you are discharging your (now tired) 400 amp hour battery bank to 25% thus greatly accelerating it's eventual death. The non technical person will be clueless about this problem.

Charge efficiency is apparently a simple concept: amps out/amp in *100. In practice this doesn't work. The results are different for the same battery depending upon the discharge current and/or the charge current. Different charge efficiencies can be got from the same battery simply by varying the charge or discharge current.

As the charge efficiency is used by the amp hours counter to calculate recharge profiles, you will see that the *ideal* recharge count-up will be at varying rates depending upon the discharge rate. In pratice it will be the same for each cycle and therefore incorrect.

There is an effect similar to Peukert's effect during charging (charging at 40 amps does *not* return twice as much energy as charging at 20 amps - it returns less). Unfortunately, unlike Peukert's effect, there is no way to calculate it's effects. The effects can be measured, but they cannot be predicted.

These are just a few of the many problems that cause amp hours counters to run adrift.

It really is a *major* problem for *many* people.

Technically minded people are probably happier with, and more suited to using, a fully fledged, Peukert corrected amp hours counter such as the later Link 2000 (early units were not Peukert corrected) or a Link 10, DCM600 E-501 etc etc etc.

Non technically minded people have a *very* low success rate with these devices.

Fleet vehicle users have tried amp hours counters but the learning curve is simply too long and complicated for them. The problem of running out of sync unless *everyone* involved in the installation *and* use of the equipment is educated in it's use makes them no use whatsoever to these people. Likewise hire boats.

SmartGauge is aimed at these people. It is not aimed at technically minded people who, as I say above, would be much better off with an amp hours counter.

However not everyone is technically minded, not everyone has the time to learn the intricacies of an amp hours counter and not everyone can be bothered. And those that are not, may still want to know "how much power is left". For these people, SmartGauge is ideal. These are the people SmartGauge is aimed at.

And, as testified by James Hortop, the device does indeed work. And it cannot run out of sync, which is the main problem the device was designed to avoid.

As the device is aimed at people who either do not have the technical knowledge required for efficient use of an amp hours counter, or perhaps people who simply can't be bothered with all that, it was decided that simplicity and speed of installation was also an important factor. Hence the shuntless design.

The people SmartGauge is aimed at are not interested in "what is my charge rate?" or "how much power does my fridge use?". Just like I am not interested in how fast a petrol pump fills my car up. They and I are interested in "how much is left?"

SmartGauge is not a "fancy voltmeter". It is a battery state of charge meter.

SmartGauge does and will display the charge status during charging. It cannot do this to better than a guaranteed accuracy of 10%. We state this on the website because we are honest. In practice 2 or 3% is usually the achieved figure but we cannot guarantee this. Amp hours counters can be out by *much* more than this during recharge. Several hundred amp hours adrift after just 5 or 6 cycles is *not* exaggerated speculation. It is fact. I have been involved in the supply, manufacture and design of amp hours counters for over 15 years, it is a *very* well known problem within the industry.

My own Link 2000R is setup perfectly yet during recharge it is not uncommon to see a recharge from, say, - 200 amp hours up to -30 amp hours, then the counter reset to zero because the Link has detected the charge parameters being met. This equates to an error at the end of the charge cycle of over 15%

Conversely I also regularly see the meter reach 0 amp hours yet still there is a quite heavy charge current flowing. This is the same error but in the opposite direction.

During cruising, or vehicle use, it is a very common situation for the batteries to not reach a fully charged state for, sometimes, weeks on end. When this happens, the amp hours counter can *easily* run adrift by twice the capacity of the battery bank in 3 weeks. Again, this is not speculation, this is the result of many years of involvement, design and tests with these types of units.

As to the matter of "value for money". Well again, that depends upon the user. If an amp hours counter simply does not work for a non technical user yet a SmartGauge does, then which represents the best value?

You have to remember that not everyone understands volts, amps, amp hours, Peukert, charge efficiency etc. And for those that don't, an amp hours counter will not do what they require of a battery monitor. i.e. it will not tell them the state of charge of their batteries.

Obviously I am not prepared to disclose how SmartGauge works. Anyone who asks me to do so is simply being totally unreasonable.

But to say that only voltage can be measured via 2 wires is *completely* incorrect.....

Pull a brief current pulse from the battery and measure the voltage drop, this will give an indication of internal resistance.

Present an AC voltage across the battery and measure the phase angle and amplitude of the resultant current. This will show the AC impedance of the battery.

Do the same thing with a wide variety of frequencies and analyse the results. This is know as AC impedance spectrography.

These are very well known methods of battery measurements. They all involve "2 wires". There are *many* more that can be made with 2 wires.

SmartGauge is brand new technology. And there is always severe resistance to anything that breaks new ground. Everyone we approach with the device has the same reservations..... "it can't work". The fact is it does work.

Merlin Equipment made the same comment initially "yea yea yea, two wires, won't work". After testing the unit for some considerable time John Hortop's (James' father) response to me was ".... and the SmartGauge, well, that's bloody brilliant"

The trade customers who have bought units have all been back and bought more. The few end users who have bought it have all reported that they are happy with the results.

SmartGauge was launched at the beginning of september so it is relatively new on the market. A very small number have been sold, roughly 160 units. This is in addition to the 48 units that remain in the field from the beta testers. None have reported that the device doesn't work or that there are any problems.

For clarification, SmartGauge is not aimed at technically minded people. They can get along quite happily with an amp hours counter. Even when the unit runs out of sync, an experienced user can usually know this from the voltage and current readings. A non technical user cannot.

Non technically minded people have a very low success rate with amp hours counters. This is a fact. It isn't speculation. SmartGauge addresses that issue.

Just because someone is not technically minded, does not mean that they are not entitled to know how much power they have left in their batteries. Just because someone owns a boat or RV, or drives an ambulance does not mean they will be technically minded.

If I didn't know there was a market for SmartGauge I would not have wasted my time and money developing it. I would have made yet another amp hours counter (I have designed 2 in the past) followed by hundeds of hours on the 'phone explaining why it has run out of sync.

Of course, the ideal solution, to suit everyone, would be an amp hours counter, using the SmartGauge algorithm to put right the deficiencies of the amp hours counter.

Now I wonder..........

As to comments regarding the website, if someone wishes to make *constructive* comments or correct any technical issues I will be more than happy to listen. To make comments such as "long winded diatribe" to me just sounds like a euphemism for "I couldn't understand it" or "I couldn't be bothered reading it" or perhaps "I have a hidden agenda for slandering this device". Of course, I may be wrong, it may simply be genuine suspicion due to the sheer number of useless equipment that is often peddled.

If that is the case, then I can understand some of the coments. However to state "is simply a fancy voltmeter" without any experience of the device is, I believe, rather unfair. Not to mention, technically, totally incorrect.

As far as I am aware, there is no information on the website that is technically incorrect. Of course I am human and may have made mistakes. But I certainly would not tell lies about matters technical. My wages depend upon my technical knowledge. If I was seen to be incorrect in such matters, I would soon have problems with some of my large commercial customers.

As to alternator controllers not being required on modern installations, if you read the entire article, and think carefully about it, you will see that what is said is, indeed, correct. As James Hortop testifies.

And I agree that I should change the sentence "split charge diodes do not work" to "split charge diodes do not work properly". Because they don't.

As I said, constructive criticism is more than welcome. I would greatly appreciate it.

Thankyou for taking the time to read this.

Chris Gibson

 

[JerryHawkins]

Thanks Chris...

...for taking the time to respond to the various comments that have been made here over the last few days.

I consider myself to be technically minded (my background is in electrical & electronic engineering, moving to computing in more recent years) but I get annoyed with my Link10 sometimes even though I know what its trying to do and how its trying to do it! My new boat doesn't have any monitoring as yet and I was going to get another Link10 (I may still do so) but I now want a SmartGauge! I hope you have some left for when santa (aka my wife!) contacts you to get me one as a Christmas pressy?!!

Cheers and happy Christmas!

Jerry

 

[Victorious]

Re: Thanks Chris...

Please excuse my lack of electronics understanding.
Having spent 7 years reclusivly rebuilding Victorious.... when i did get afloat again i found that marine electrics had moved a very long way while i was not lookin.

I simply want to make the most efficient use of the amps my engine produces as a by-product of motoring to/from my mooring... in and out of marinas (that have been built where my fav anchorages used to be (Rant)).... etc,etc.

I have been lead to believe that the Regulator fitted to my 1967 Perkins 4236 does not make best use of the Amps produced.
?

Having made better use of the "free" amps.... I will then want to know when the batteries or so low that i ought to turn the fridge off.... or drag the generator out on deck and run it (powering a 240V "smart" 3 stage.. 24v charger)
Some guidance as to how long i oughta run the genny/charger would be a help, And i assume that expirience with the system will help me assess that time needed with better accuracy.
I dont want to Have to know how the boxes work.... nor do i intend to cut things so fine that an accuracy of 1% will be required.

I have a total of 500ah of domestic batteries... and 250ah for engine cranking.
I hope i dont have to find space for MORE batteries.

perhaps i am unusual.... or being tooo simplistic?