Smartbank battery management

SmartBank is simply a bi-directional VSR (voltage sensitive relay). The fact that the relay is separate means that additional connections are involved - introducing potential for faults. If you want a VSR, look also at the BEP range.

SmartGauge is simply a fancy voltmeter, and I'd be quite wary of the claims made on the website. If you want a battery monitor, you'll be hardpressed to find anything better than the Xantrex Link 10 or the BEP DCM600. These are real systems.
 
Does sound convincing...

Never heard of them before, but I've now spent a long time reading carefully through their website details. The technical arguments against the amp-hour counter monitors seem logical. I am now seriously considering getting one of their SmartGauges.

I had a Link10 on my last boat and was going to get another, but its true what they say - these type of devices do get "out of sync" with the battery state of charge and have to be reset - mine about 2 or 3 times a year. Probably should have been done more often, but that was when it became very obvious that what it was telling me was garbage!

Cheers,

Jerry
 
Link 10...

The Link 10 is one of the cleverest little devices around, and it's highly accurate. If you had to reset yours several times a year, it's either because (a) you didn't set the parameters correctly initially, or (b) you haven't been fully recharging your batteries. To replace it with a high-priced voltmeter would seem to be a retrograde step.
 
Re: Link 10...

I question the accuracy of the Link 10. Mine shows a spurious discharge of about 0.4A and after a week or two away from the boat is showing the batteries flat even though they are full. It's useful as ammeter/voltmeter and when living aboard the LEDs are a handy warning of time to recharge but not too useful for once-a-week sailing.
 
Testing Link 10...

Normal accuracy at low current readings on the Link 10 is about 0.1A. If it's faulty, send it back - I'm sure they'll fix/replace it. To check if the Link 10 is faulty, disconnect the shunt at the load end (so that no current can flow, but leaving the Link 10's black wire connected) and see whether the Link 10 still shows a discharge. Also, are you using a twisted pair for the orange & green wires?
 
As a new member and happy customer of both these units, and also now a friend of the designer of both the SmartBank and the SmartGauge I would like to add the following comments.

Do you actually have first hand experience of these devices? I would guess not.

SmartBank is NOT simply a "bi-directional VSR". To say it is, implies lack of knowledge. It is FAR cleverer and more succesful than any "simple VSR".

SmartGauge is NOT "simply a fancy voltmeter". Anyone who says it is, has no experience of the device and is not qualified to make such a claim.

SmartGauge now runs alongside my amp hours counter and I can assure you it is FAR more accurate and does not run out of synchronisation.

I thought it only fair to point this out to other group members.

Dave
 
Oh, come on!

Oh, come on, let's try to be realistic! The SmartBank is essentially a bi-directional VSR; sure, it has adjustable cut-in and cut-out voltages, but to say it's "FAR cleverer and more succesful" is rather over the top. If it's so successful, how many people have bought it? The SmartGauge only has a 2-wire connection and no shunt, so it can only measure voltage.

The SmartGauge Electronics website is full of long-winded explanations of why SmartBank or SmartGauge are "revolutionary systems". But some of the claims are a bit suspect. For example, I'd suggest that the claim "Split charge diodes do not work" might not be believed by the hundreds of thousands of boatowners who know that diodes do indeed work. Similarly "Alternator controllers are not required on modern systems. They will achieve nothing." is also I'd suggest open to dispute. These sorts of spurious claims do nothing to enhance the reputation of the aspiring designer, and will positively discourage a lot of potentially interested people. Rather like the fanciful claims made by the maker of that famous towable watermaker...on second thoughts, maybe I shouldn't mention that again! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Oh, come on!

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, come on, let's try to be realistic! The SmartBank is essentially a bi-directional VSR; sure, it has adjustable cut-in and cut-out voltages, but to say it's "FAR cleverer and more succesful" is rather over the top. If it's so successful, how many people have bought it? The SmartGauge only has a 2-wire connection and no shunt, so it can only measure voltage.

The SmartGauge Electronics website is full of long-winded explanations of why SmartBank or SmartGauge are "revolutionary systems". But some of the claims are a bit suspect. For example, I'd suggest that the claim "Split charge diodes do not work" might not be believed by the hundreds of thousands of boatowners who know that diodes do indeed work. Similarly "Alternator controllers are not required on modern systems. They will achieve nothing." is also I'd suggest open to dispute. These sorts of spurious claims do nothing to enhance the reputation of the aspiring designer, and will positively discourage a lot of potentially interested people. Rather like the fanciful claims made by the maker of that famous towable watermaker...on second thoughts, maybe I shouldn't mention that again! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I coped your post to the designer. I await his response.

If you believe that 2 wires can only measure battery voltage then I suggest you have a lot to learn.

I refuse to be drawn into an argument with you about something that you clearly do not understand.

The fact is that the devices work. The split charge system works better than my old diode system and the SmartGauge works far better than my Link 2000 amp hours counter.

Dave
 
Welcome to the forum...

Forgot to welcome you to the forum - you obviously believe in jumping in at the deep end! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The boating community is seen as fair game for a wide variety of hustlers who consider that boatowners have more money than sense so, over the years, many of us have become a little suspicious of claims made for new products.

I'd freely admit I have a lot to learn, as I've only been interested in boat electrics for 30-odd years and, as an engineering graduate, I've a fair thirst for knowledge. That's why I'd be intrigued if you could enlighten me on the point about what else, other than voltage, a shuntless 2-wire connection to a battery can measure.
 
Re: Welcome to the forum...

[ QUOTE ]
Forgot to welcome you to the forum - you obviously believe in jumping in at the deep end! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The boating community is seen as fair game for a wide variety of hustlers who consider that boatowners have more money than sense so, over the years, many of us have become a little suspicious of claims made for new products.

I'd freely admit I have a lot to learn, as I've only been interested in boat electrics for 30-odd years and, as an engineering graduate, I've a fair thirst for knowledge. That's why I'd be intrigued if you could enlighten me on the point about what else, other than voltage, a shuntless 2-wire connection to a battery can measure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thankyou for the welcome /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

"interested in boat electrics for 30 years", does not make an electronic specialist. Just like laying bricks for 30 years does not make an architect.

And what a strange outlook you have. By your reasoning you should have no TV, or CD player, or nav system, or radar. You decide for yourself before you have even seen one that, because you cannot understand how something works, it therefore must not work. Or it must be something different to what the manufacturer says it is.

As to "what else, other than voltage, a shuntless 2-wire connection to a battery can measure" I don't know. Why don't you email them and ask?

I have had a few of them since the beta test days. They work better than amp hours counters, more accurate, don't run out of synch, they compensate for battery aging etc. They are NOT voltemeters.

And the split charge controller is not a VSR.

You haven't denied that you have never seen either device so I assume you haven't. If you have never seen one, or tried one, how do you propose to tell other people how they work, what they are and what they are not?

Dave
 
Ahhh...

Sorry, but it sounds as if you're just a bit too close to the company to be offering independent judgements. And as you've ducked the voltage measurement question, I guess you're not too clued-up on electrics either.

For the record, as I posted earlier in this thread, the only reasons a Link meter gets out of synch is either because (a) you didn't set the parameters correctly initially, or (b) you haven't been fully recharging your batteries.

PS I understand perfectly how TVs, CDs, nav systems and radars work, too.
 
Re: Ahhh...

Oh help!

Anybody else have an INFORMED opinion?

Dave and pvb seem to have opposing views, and both seem biased to some extent.
Between them they have only added to my indecisive confusion
Meanwhile I have been trying to plan the electrics for Victorious.
I cannot really afford Any of these gizmos... But Must optimize the avail amps on Victorious for next season. So the credit card will have to bear some more strain.
I am already financially on my knees....Desperately short of spars, sails and an endless list of "essentials"...
I can’t afford to make a mistake!
 
How about asking Merlin?...

Why not ask Merlin Equipment, Russell? They handle a wide range of electrical equipment (including products from SmartGauge) and would be able to advise you. Their Marine Sales Manager, James Hortop, is a specialist contributor to Practical Boat Owner on marine electrical topics, and I'm sure you'd be able to trust his recommendations. I hasten to add I have no connection with Merlin.

Sorry you think I'm biased - if I have a bias, it's in favour of the boatowners who have to wade through the far-fetched blurb pumped out by some companies trying to get us to spend money!

One of the most cost-effective improvements you can make to any boat's electrical system is to add more batteries. Bigger battery banks accept the available charge more readily, they give the boat greater endurance between charges, and they last longer because they needn't be subjected to such deep discharges.
 
Re: Ahhh...

If you are on a really tight budget then I would not buy any of these gizmos. The ability to measure current in/out of your batteries is highly desirable but not essential, if you know your kit well enough and you can estimate it pretty accurately anyway. If in doubt a cheap multimeter will give you an accurate one-off measurement.

I share pvb's bemusement about how a smartguage can be doing much more than measuring system voltage. You can of course get a very accurate estimate of charge state from system voltage if you allow for temp and let the batteries 'settle' after charging. Again a £5 multimeter will do this.

Please Dave, I am a thicky, I DO believe that in the system described, 2 wires can only measure battery voltage and I agree that I have a lot to learn. Please enlighten me.
 
Re: Ahhh...

I copied some of the posts to the him for his comments and invited him to this forum, he says he is too busy.

I got some information from his reply.

This is a direct quote.

===

If he thinks you can only measure battery voltage with only 2 wires it kinda shows he has a reasonable, but very basic, understanding of electrickery. Ask him to look up "internal resistance measurement", "internal impedance measurement", "AC impedance spectrography", "surface charge" and "battery recovery". Tell him to also read up on battery delta-v, it's relationship to state of charge and the relationships between internal AC impedance, internal resistance, peukertt's exponent, battery voltage, battery state of health and state of charge. A basic knowledge of *electrics* tells you that only the battery voltage can be measured. A true deep understanding of *electronics* tells you there is far more than just battery voltage that can be measured with only 2 wires. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as they say.

It would appear that he has made a very bold statement i.e. "is simply a fancy voltmeter" without any knoweldge of the subject or the device. I wonder if Libel laws apply on the internet? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

===

Does that answer your question?

Now I will ask you a direct question and would appreciate a direct answer:-

Have you actually tried one of these units and decided that it doesn't work because the display it gives does not tally with the batteries OR have you not tried one and decided that it can't work because you fail to understand how it works and therefore draw the conclusion that it can't and that it is nothing more than a voltmeter?

In order words, are you saying SmartGauge is a voltmeter because you have tested one and found it to be so OR are you saying it is a voltmeter because you didn't know that more than just voltage can be measured with only 2 wires?

The fact is, it does work.

Dave
 
Re: Ahhh...

Hey, great barney! Benbow is right however. If you have limited cash, early priorities are batteries, batteries and more batteries. After you have got enough battery capacity, think about a hight current alternator. It is no good measuring the juice unless you have plenty of it and then there is less need to measure it.

The debate about having lots of instrumentation is really about developing a highly optimised system. This involves cutting down on over-capacity and redundancy as far as possible. Eventually you end up with the "one hoss shay" as described by Ogden Nash that runs for a year and a day and then fails. Totally. It is not smart to run a boat as a highly optimised system. Things go wrong. They go wrong in construction as well. Two such systems that spring to mind were the box-girder bridges at Yarra Strait and Milford Haven. They both fell down. There is a lesson there somewhere.
 
Well, I\'m going to try one...

...at least, I've asked father Christmas for one!

If he delivers, I'll report back on my totally unbiassed findings next year.

Just to add my thoughts on the copious comments above... yes, I agree that two wires can only measure voltage, but... the voltage changes with the state of charge and the rate of change of voltage varies with the rate if charge or discharge. If you draw more current from a battery, the voltage will fall more quickly than if you draw a small current. So, some clever calculations can be done with this "delta-v" and "delta-t" information and produce a "state of charge" figure. Natutally I'm not privy to the details of these algorithms (that, no doubt is a commercial secret of Smartgauge) but I can see how it can work and it seems logical to me that there is no reason why it cannot work.

Cheers,

Jerry
 
Re: Ahhh...

Fer chrisakes... thats must be a record.... an implied libel threat by your 4th post......

Tell your friend that we aren't all thickies..... quote Thevenin's theorem at him... he'll know what it is....

Now can we get back to a constructive debate rather than mud slinging...

pvb... sorry, but on this one, he's right... Norton's theorem dictates that the impedance of a voltage source can be measured in series.... long lived the beloved 'j'
 
You see, credibility is the issue...

The issue is credibility. The SmartGauge website is packed with very lengthy diatribes in which Chris Gibson denounces many of the most successful marine electrical products. And the "blinding with science" approach follows through to the reply you've posted. But for him to say "Split charge diodes do not work" and "Alternator controllers are not required on modern systems. They will achieve nothing." just destroys any credibility he might start out with.

No, I haven't tried a SmartGauge, and I suspect very few people have or will. If he'd like to supply one on loan, I'd be delighted to test it and report back to the forum.
 
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