Small cruiser/racer selection advice

lpdsn said:
In that case definitely look at a Ruffian or Shipman 28. You should be able to get one in Ireland and sail it around to the west coat. There were a couple of Shipman's for under €5,000 when I looked earlier. Don't be put off by the 28' as being too big as they have large overhangs. They sail well.
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Yeah I hear good things about the Ruffian but its kind of pushing my budget a bit, if I decided to up it I'd probably look for something a bit bigger though.
Yes I agree the Shipman's very interesting, however, I've heard they're comparatively narrow and a bit harder to sail than some of the other options at that size.
 
PeteCooper said:
The Sonata is a lot quicker than the Pandora - and quicker than an Ecume De Mer if performance is what you are after. If you want to know more about the Ecume have a look in the Archive section of http://yachtsnet.co.uk/archives.htm or send me a PM and I will be happy to tell you about them.
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Its interesting to know that the Sonata is faster than the Ecume though, I thought it might be the opposite.
Are you talking more around the cans though or compared to coastal sailing with all the chop etc that it entails?
Yeah I'm just looking for fun, challenging sailing that will also complete a couple of days coastal adventure.
Had originally favored Pandoras over the Sonata mainly for price in that size category but its great to get that comparison.
 
Another vote here for the Ecume as a handy safe cruiser.

I had one with an outboard, which was ok. a small diesel would have been better, but more expensive. It was handy being able to lift it on to the dinghy though.

Had several trips with 2 adults and 2 teens on board.

I went slightly bigger, probably because of that.....
 
If your budget runs to £12-15,000 you might have a look at an MGC27; similar performance to the Impala, very good sea boat, civilised down below and very easy to sail single handed
 
Hey guys,

i love the look of the Impala, shipman and Ecume but am starting to think that maybe I'll take a look at something like them in later years as I have a feeling that there will be a lot more associated costs and work involved which I may not be at the best stage to tackle for now.
Anyhow its good to have a few smaller boats suggested like the Sonata and Ruffian.
The Ruffian sounds like a good sailor and maybe something that will sell on in later years?
Theres an example I think I'm going to take a look at with an inboard, does anyone know if that is a bad idea on such a small boat. Would it drastically affect performance compared to an outboard?
If anyone has anymore takes on them it would be great, how do they sail windward etc, what kind of speed would you be looking for on an in form day etc?
I'm getting the impression that they are the better coastal sailors compared to the Sonatas or Pandoras but you're welcome to contradict this?
Thanks everyones advice has been great btw.
 
I've owned a Robber 3E and presently have a GK24.
The Sonatas, Pandora, Ruffians etc are all 'a size' down from the quarter tonners - not a big difference but enough to make the quarter tonners preferable in my view. Frankly I'm staggered to hear a Sonata is faster than an Ecume, Sonatas were specifically designed not to exceed hull speed and so they might be quicker in light airs but certainly not in F3 or more.

The Robber 3E has an enormous internal volume - but it can be sluggish in light airs. I single handed mine, think of it as a big dinghy, pretty powerful but quicker if sailed fairly flat. Lightly built so a careful look before buying, mine needed some strengthening to support the flat bottom panels - particularly aft of the keel.

The GK has much less headroom, but is a much better balanced design, less beamy, it is not stopped by short seas. Internal volume is good - but the headroom is pretty modest. Altogether better built though than the Robber. Both Robber and GK are fractional rigger (the Robber was modified from standard), so easy to sail single handed - modest jibs but with a cruising chute lots of area off the wind. Both of these have/had outboard auxiliaries - but they are light boats and can be warped, pushed and even paddled in a marina, elsewhere they sail so well there are no real manoeuvring issues.
All of these decisions are driven by money and availability. Get onboard a couple and make a cup of tea, even better sail them if possible, the extra size of a quarter tonner really makes them a good choice - if you can find a good one at sensible prices.
 
Out of the boats recently mentioned, the GK24 would win hands down for me as something I'd be confident to push to windward in snotty conditions - some of the others would quake at the thought, NB there's a fine balance between weight and penetration into big waves, also weight v crew on rail required especially singlehanded.

I met a very good sailor - a Cornishman, no surprise - who'd sailed an E-Boat across the Atlantic, his comment was it was too light and wide so got stopped by waves.

Even on a heavy thrash into a true F6 in the Solent and just outside to Chichester, my Anderson 22 beat a Rival 34 by a large margin; the Rival was sailed by an ex-National champion Enterperprise dinghy chap, so he knew how to sail; ever afterwards Ken met me with " I hate that boat ! " And he wasn't entirely joking.

He also commented that the Hurley 22 he'd owned would have stopped dead in such conditions; at least one A22 is prepared for the Jester if her pro ship skipper can get the time, three A'22's have raced across already.

No way you're going to stand up in an Anderson 22 but the bunks are longer ( saloon ones are 6'4" and 6'7" and wide too, forepeak comfy for one giant or two friendly adults :) - and better than the Carter 30 I briefly owned before getting my A22 back.

Around here one can barely give away a fin keeler under 30', but there is a once famous for racing results fin keel Anderson 22 - one of two specials made for Scottish racing customers - going VERY cheap, allowing budget for a bit of smartening up and a few good new sails.
 
Pete54 said:
Frankly I'm staggered to hear a Sonata is faster than an Ecume
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Perhaps I should explain that the only basis for me saying that the Sonata is quicker than the Ecume is based on the handicaps that CYCA give them - in heavy weather my Ecume would keep going when many others wouldn't - and the only direct comparison I have with my Ecume was when I sailed to Ireland(Glenarm) in company with a Moody 27. We left together and we got there nearly 2 hours ahead of the Moody.
 
Pete54 said:
I've owned a Robber 3E and presently have a GK24.
The Sonatas, Pandora, Ruffians etc are all 'a size' down from the quarter tonners - not a big difference but enough to make the quarter tonners preferable in my view. Frankly I'm staggered to hear a Sonata is faster than an Ecume, Sonatas were specifically designed not to exceed hull speed and so they might be quicker in light airs but certainly not in F3 or more.

The Robber 3E has an enormous internal volume - but it can be sluggish in light airs. I single handed mine, think of it as a big dinghy, pretty powerful but quicker if sailed fairly flat. Lightly built so a careful look before buying, mine needed some strengthening to support the flat bottom panels - particularly aft of the keel.

The GK has much less headroom, but is a much better balanced design, less beamy, it is not stopped by short seas. Internal volume is good - but the headroom is pretty modest. Altogether better built though than the Robber. Both Robber and GK are fractional rigger (the Robber was modified from standard), so easy to sail single handed - modest jibs but with a cruising chute lots of area off the wind. Both of these have/had outboard auxiliaries - but they are light boats and can be warped, pushed and even paddled in a marina, elsewhere they sail so well there are no real manoeuvring issues.
All of these decisions are driven by money and availability. Get onboard a couple and make a cup of tea, even better sail them if possible, the extra size of a quarter tonner really makes them a good choice - if you can find a good one at sensible prices.
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Interesting to hear you sailed the Robber singlehanded, got the impression that was on the lighter end of the quarter tonners.
I know the Ruffian is considered a quarter tonner, altough significantly smaller than the the Robber at 23.5 feet.
Yeah I'm certainly tempted by those larger more powerful examples but have heard a few great reports of the Ruffian that compare performance to larger vessels.
 
Seajet said:
Out of the boats recently mentioned, the GK24 would win hands down for me as something I'd be confident to push to windward in snotty conditions - some of the others would quake at the thought, NB there's a fine balance between weight and penetration into big waves, also weight v crew on rail required especially singlehanded.

I met a very good sailor - a Cornishman, no surprise - who'd sailed an E-Boat across the Atlantic, his comment was it was too light and wide so got stopped by waves.

Even on a heavy thrash into a true F6 in the Solent and just outside to Chichester, my Anderson 22 beat a Rival 34 by a large margin; the Rival was sailed by an ex-National champion Enterperprise dinghy chap, so he knew how to sail; ever afterwards Ken met me with " I hate that boat ! " And he wasn't entirely joking.

He also commented that the Hurley 22 he'd owned would have stopped dead in such conditions; at least one A22 is prepared for the Jester if her pro ship skipper can get the time, three A'22's have raced across already.

No way you're going to stand up in an Anderson 22 but the bunks are longer ( saloon ones are 6'4" and 6'7" and wide too, forepeak comfy for one giant or two friendly adults :) - and better than the Carter 30 I briefly owned before getting my A22 back.

Around here one can barely give away a fin keeler under 30', but there is a once famous for racing results fin keel Anderson 22 - one of two specials made for Scottish racing customers - going VERY cheap, allowing budget for a bit of smartening up and a few good new sails.
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People sure do love their A22s! I've defo heard great things about them.
The fact that they are small and not in Ireland on a trailer means I'll prob be looking at Ruffians though.
 
rog123 said:
Yeah I hear good things about the Ruffian but its kind of pushing my budget a bit, if I decided to up it I'd probably look for something a bit bigger though.
Yes I agree the Shipman's very interesting, however, I've heard they're comparatively narrow and a bit harder to sail than some of the other options at that size.
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I've done a few races on Sonatas and Shipmans. There's no way I'd consider a Shipman hard to sail, in fact the opposite, but yes they are a bit narrow - see my comment about them not being a big 28' - but not ridiculously so. I've found them to be pretty slick under IRC racing and in the classes they race in you have to keep an eye open for them sneaking up on you. Big genny that is some work to tack. If racing get a foredeck monkey to drag it around. If cruising sail with a smaller headsail.

Sonatas are very lightweight but nice round the cans racers. They can be sailed competitively under IRC, but you'd need to be a good sailor to handle one when the wind gets up and you're trying to get home. I had a Sonata owner on my boat once in a bit of a blow with horrible crossed wave patterns, he said: "If we were here on my boat we'd be dead". Worth thinking about on the Atlantic coast.

Impalas are brilliant round the cans racers and very IRC compatible. I sometimes joke about selling my boat and buying one. But I would use it for round the cans racing not cruising.

Ruffians seem to handle it well when I've seen them but I think Quandry is your man for questions.
 
rog123 said:
People sure do love their A22s! I've defo heard great things about them.
The fact that they are small and not in Ireland on a trailer means I'll prob be looking at Ruffians though.
Click to expand...

There are at least half a dozen in Ireland, inc the ex-Myjo I fitted out, and one fitted out for the Jester - and this one which I haven't seen but have chatted long hours with the owner, a lovely chap who prefers seriously working on boats than sailing them, so I'd suggest well worth checking out;


Anderson 22 for Sale – ‘Chancer’
Chancer_edited

Chancer – A22 for sale, Ireland

A basically equipped, thoroughly maintained boat.

Red topsides

New keel 2009

Hull below waterline gelshielded as precaution ( no osmosis )

New custom wooden rubbing strakes

Yamaha 5hp 2-stroke with remote & internal tanks, well maintained & used in fresh water, 2009 – yes, 2009; the dealer foresaw the demand for light 2-strokes so invested in a batch…

‘B’ Layout forepeak

Windows renewed 2009

Roller Genoa

Good Main & Genoa, plus various other sails

VHF

There is a trailer with the boat, but it is unbraked so really only suitable for yard use.

More details & photos on request

£4,000

Lying ashore in Republic of Ireland

-------

I think the price will have slipped significantly and the owner wouldn't care so much as her going to a good home- still budget room for kitting out and sails...
 
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Sonata and Ecume de mer on Byron software are 1033 and 1039 respectively though sonata better in the light compared to ecume.OP spoilt for choice difficulty will be finding best equipped for the price.A bolero or possibly hunter delta with fixed keel would be ok,lots of minitonners out there some in good condition ,limbo 21 but on tender side,fox terrier very tough,Eboat but all are light weather bandits but surprisingly capable in a blow if well reefed and sailed.I am told a sonata is interesting boat to sail in f7 plus downwind I think there are u tube clips demonstrating.Scroll down the results of the round the Island race in a windy year will sort wheat from the chaff.Good luck with your search.
 
The RTIR is not really representative, for example there are six A22's at my club alone but

A, we all generally cruise now,

B, when I have suggested it to chums we couldn't all get the same time off, and the faff of Cowes Week put us off anyway; a F5+ would certainly sort the wheat from the chaff, and an A22 doesn't need a load of spare meat sitting on the side...:)

The fin keeler version in Scotland going for peanuts - largely because despite my advice the owner won't even tidy her up for photo's - has to be a steal, for someone like the OP operating from deep water moorings, ' Agro ' was a famous boat in Clyde racing - if bothered look at my website below on the ' articles ' section for Bob Salmon taking Anderson Affair across to Antigua, I can give the full real story about that inc going on the reef - no fault of the late Bob. :)
 
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lpdsn said:
I've done a few races on Sonatas and Shipmans. There's no way I'd consider a Shipman hard to sail, in fact the opposite, but yes they are a bit narrow - see my comment about them not being a big 28' - but not ridiculously so. I've found them to be pretty slick under IRC racing and in the classes they race in you have to keep an eye open for them sneaking up on you. Big genny that is some work to tack. If racing get a foredeck monkey to drag it around. If cruising sail with a smaller headsail.

Sonatas are very lightweight but nice round the cans racers. They can be sailed competitively under IRC, but you'd need to be a good sailor to handle one when the wind gets up and you're trying to get home. I had a Sonata owner on my boat once in a bit of a blow with horrible crossed wave patterns, he said: "If we were here on my boat we'd be dead". Worth thinking about on the Atlantic coast.

Impalas are brilliant round the cans racers and very IRC compatible. I sometimes joke about selling my boat and buying one. But I would use it for round the cans racing not cruising.

Ruffians seem to handle it well when I've seen them but I think Quandry is your man for questions.
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Thats a nice report on the Shipman, theres a few around I might take a look at if I don't like what I'm viewing.
Yeah impalas are the dream for me, some day lol.
 
Seajet said:
There are at least half a dozen in Ireland, inc the ex-Myjo I fitted out, and one fitted out for the Jester - and this one which I haven't seen but have chatted long hours with the owner, a lovely chap who prefers seriously working on boats than sailing them, so I'd suggest well worth checking out;


Anderson 22 for Sale – ‘Chancer’
Chancer_edited

Chancer – A22 for sale, Ireland

A basically equipped, thoroughly maintained boat.

Red topsides

New keel 2009

Hull below waterline gelshielded as precaution ( no osmosis )

New custom wooden rubbing strakes

Yamaha 5hp 2-stroke with remote & internal tanks, well maintained & used in fresh water, 2009 – yes, 2009; the dealer foresaw the demand for light 2-strokes so invested in a batch…

‘B’ Layout forepeak

Windows renewed 2009

Roller Genoa

Good Main & Genoa, plus various other sails

VHF

There is a trailer with the boat, but it is unbraked so really only suitable for yard use.

More details & photos on request

£4,000

Lying ashore in Republic of Ireland

-------

I think the price will have slipped significantly and the owner wouldn't care so much as her going to a good home- still budget room for kitting out and sails...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the help Seajet,
I have a few options I'm going to take a look at but will definitely consider A22s as a potential option after all the good reports.
 
Ruffian 23
Pros. Competitive on its handicap and reasonably easy to sail though to win races you need to know what you are doing.
Tough as old boots, we thought nothing of racing in The Scottish series etc and getting home again down the North Channel overnight because they were a go anywhere boat. Carry kite well downwind and are close winded going upwind will beat many of the boats above in anything over 15kts. of wind.
Practical accommodation for a 23 footer, look good and not too dated, beamy for their time, medium draught (1.5m.?) iron fin keel, transom hung rudder, some had single central sheet winch arrangement, this works well for racing. Straightforward but tunable sturdy conventional masthead rig, big genoa typical of the time, the dinghy style transom mounted hardwood rudder on pintles with tiller are easy to maintain or replace, not much to go wrong.
Favoured in their day by some of the best racing sailors, guys like Hugh Ennis, Nick Stratton, Alan Richmond as well as the Brown brothers themselves.
Still in demand because there are fleets in Dublin Bay and Carrickfergus which meet to race each other every year. Towable behind a fairly normal car so can be taken home in winter.

Cons. The majority were sold as hull/keel/rig kit boats and were fitted out by the owners so interior fit out and deck gear varies from first class to mediocre. A couple had wheel steering, avoid.
Most R23s started out using 6-8hp outboards but many have since had small inboards fitted, the outboard is faster for racing but being offset is a bit less effective for cruising, an inboard with a folding prop should still be competitive.
Quite old now so can not comment on current condition but we regarded them as tough and durable, some strange hull colours, yellow, orange,there was even a pink one, though many have since been painted.
Caution, all this is dredged from my memory of the 20th century.
 
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