Small boats that sail well ?

although a 22 with a sea toilet would be preferable for longer journeys.

A few considerations;

Sea toilets don't work when the boat's dried on the mud

They mean valves in the loo and valves, holes in the hull to go wrong, possibly in a big way

Chemical loos naturally have a 'holding tank', if upcoming regulations stipulate those as seems quite likely it will be a serious pain fitting a tank into any boat much less than 30 '...
 
Thanks Seajet, I have never dried out and have never used a chemical loo so knew none of that - most helpful.
 
colhel said:
Leisure's seem to get a bit of a kicking on this forum :( We love ours and she seems to go along nicely too. Here's a pic of our 23SL taken a couple or three weeks back :)
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I have a pic of what I take to be a Leisure 20 on Windermere
Am I right?

Sailing_Leisure20.jpg
 
That certainly looks like a Leisure 20 to me.

That pic' reminds me, when I took my dinghy to the Lakes I reckoned she buried her bow, less buoyant of course in fresh water; do you find that ?

Sad to read you've sold Feckless by the way, hope you get your 'Swallow' soon.
 
Cloona said:
sailed a 21ft long keeler with bilge plates - (Debutante) - and she would do alright to windward with a lot attention - and was a great fun boat to sail
Click to expand...

my family had one of these when I was a kid! it did actually sail a lot better than you might think it would with its triple keels and hard chine ply construction. my dad used to stuff pillows into the main as he reefed it around one of those terrible roller reefing booms, but it worked and kept a good shape in the main.

similar to your story we sailed all over the bristol channel and you always planned your sailing to go with the tide. doing this even in a nasty short wind over tide chop the little debuante would always claw up to windward. not going to win any races but it would get there. I dont suppose we were out in anything more than a F7 in it in all those years, but then one wouldnt plan to go out in more than a F5 in a little boat like that. I was young when dad sold the deb and got in to IOR racers in a big way but I always have a soft spot for the little debutante.

Bet you wouldnt even find one anymore nobody looked after them they weren't really classic enough for anyone to care. shame.

the french did a similar looking thing called a muscadet which was a bit more swept up with a fin keel but the old glenans sailing school (prison camp?) used to use them to teach (force) people to sail well.

In answer to the OP, in my humble opinion if I was buying a 22 footer I would get a hurley 22. they are solid little cruisers with a fair turn of speed. plenty about so you can choose a good one. They are pretty handy in the rough. cramped down below and non drying mooring only downsides.
 
Contessaman,

Still some Debutante's around, ask 'Mad Hatter' of these forums.

The first boat I ever sailed was her similar stable mate the Mystic, prettier but I suspect slower. As you say happy memories...

CompassCaperscropped.jpg
 
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An E-Boat would tick all the boxes for me - 22ft long, around 9ft beam with loads of room below, lifting keel and floats in less than a foot of water. Good cruising pedigree (incl a transAtlantic, I think) and still raced as a one-design class. Wouldn't bother with regular trailer sailing, too much hassle, but could be trailed on annual hols and taken home for winter. With her chines she resembles a grown-up Wayfarer with a lid...with all the same qualities of stability and speed.
 
Another vote for the Achilles 24. I have the triple keel version and she's a very capable boat. People have sailed them across the Atlantic (and Pacific!) so a trip round the IoW is perfectly achievable. They sail well (based on an Oliver Lee original design) and have decent accomodation (full sitting headroom). Most have an outboard in a well - my 6hp Mercury makes progress readily against 4-5kt tides.

There is a fin keel version too - they made around 600 in total so there's always plenty of choice on the market £2k will get you a tired on, >£5k for the very best.

There's a good usergroup online too: search for Achilles on Flickr as well as http://www.achillesyachts.co.uk/page17.html.

She's also a fine looking boat
 
Whilst they do not tick the box of being a lift keeler, the Hurley 22 in Bilge keel format is a great little boat. Sails well to windward, and is no slouch off the wind. The one thing that all H22 owners will tell you is that you always have the feeling that it is a boat that will ALWAYS get you home whatever the weather throws at it!
 
Cobra said:
Whilst they do not tick the box of being a lift keeler, the Hurley 22 in Bilge keel format is a great little boat. Sails well to windward, and is no slouch off the wind. The one thing that all H22 owners will tell you is that you always have the feeling that it is a boat that will ALWAYS get you home whatever the weather throws at it!
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I'll second that, though I've only ever sailed the fin keel version of the Hurley 22. Travelled far and wide in that, including single handed trips from Devon to the Scilly Isles and Brittany. Sails well, very reassuring in a blow.

Much more room than a Corribee or Prelude, though not very cleverly laid out inside. (Some (earlier ones?) also had shelves on the inside of the bulkhead either side of the companionway that reduced the apparent space in the cabin.) Certainly more roomy than the Trotter and earlier version of the Pandora (not seen inside later ones).

I had a Pirate, smaller sister of the Prelude, and that was impressively capable and dry for such a little boat, so I'm sure the Prelude would be a great boat to sail in any of its keel formats (fin, bilge, lifting keel, centre-board).

Leisure 23 is more spacious inside than the Hurley 22, but when I sailed one for two weeks I could never really get it going for some reason. Leisure 22 (same deck/cabin moulding as earlier, non-SL, Leisure 23, and sometimes 'mistakenly' (?) advertised as a 23) is said to be a poorer sailer than the 23, but probably perfectly adequate. The Leisure 20 has a cleverly laid out interior, but I doubt it sails particularly well, given the hull shape and shallow bilge keels. If space is what you're after the the Westerly 21/Warwick (and Pageant if you stretch to 23ft) are roomy and said to sail much better than you would think, but tend to be a bit pricey. Vivacity 20 is roomy for its diminutive size, but not renowned for sparkling performance (though friends who lived on one for three years and sailed it round Britain were full of praise for it).

Someone mentioned the Marcon Tomahawk, which is at 25 ft well outside the 22ft the OP was looking for, but there was also a similar era Marcon 22, though I don't know much about it.

Best, though, to not get too hung up about a particular model - condition and kit is more important with these older boats. You will almost certainly change or clarify your criteria after you've had the boat for a while, so make sure that what you buy is easily resaleable, and don't spend much time or money kitting it out to be your ultimate boat before you've had it a while and are sure you are going to keep it long term.
 
We kept a RedFox on a Chi Drying mooring 365/12, no worries

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobF
As a biased owner, I think a Red Fox would also fit your category. Will dry out and has reasonable-to-good windward performance. Very good accommodation for the size means that it's a good boat for overnighting.
I'd second that. Its a great sailing adaptable boat in all its forms.

Tim

Hi Rob, Tim,
i endorse everything you say
You can do a bit more than just overnighting, I think Alice & I proved that; Chi to Truro, or Ipswich, Normandie and bits in between:).
Mind you, about 3 weeks range maximum for a cruise effectively, even with full cockpit tent.

Peter and Martin have proved it's racing form, such that you have to have the keels locked down and sealed for your PY.
When not racing, the tricks you can get up to with the foils add to good passage making.
A good 6hp o/b with charger and a solar panel sorts 98% of power needs.

The seperate chem loo compartment with sink is a great selling point with SWMBO's.
Stowage is tremendous, I had trouble finding room for all our gear on an empty Southerly 115 when we sold 'Vulpes'.:o

Why did we sell?
Well we retired and wanted to go out for longer, further, in greater luxury.

If I could have bought a 9-11m sized RedFox, roughly same companionway, kitchen, loo grouping, same stowage, slightly bigger with a shower and another seperate cabin for guests fwd, I would have- but I needed a big Premium Bond win to have one built!:D

When time comes to downsize.....
Might see you all in Poole if Channel weather dire.
Dick
 
When I was seeking an upgrade from an Alacrity, my criteria were much the same as yours, a boat that will sail well, dry out, but with a bit more emphasis on the boat being able to make passages safely in foul weather if necessary, but mainly used for day (or two) sailing based on a drying mooring in Chi harbour. My shortlist came down to Anderson 22, Triple-keel Achilles 24, Hurley 22, Seal 22, Pandora, Sonata lift-keel, Prelude.

I really wanted an Anderson 22, but couldn't find a sensibly priced one at the time, so I ended up with an Achilles 24. I must say she fits the bill perfectly. I got caught out in a near-gale, crossing to Cherbourg the year before last, and she behaved perfectly. None of that corkscrewing round as you surf down the front of a wave, with the tiller under your chin, shouting "Come round you B'stard". Could've been on train tracks. I was so impressed that the following lunchtime we set off back to Chi with an F7 on the nose. Punching into sodding great waves on a close reach with a double-reefed main and a small jib she sailed like a dream, sometimes exceeding hull-speed, and that's with a 12 inch 3-bladed fixed prop. The only downside is that she draws 1 metre, so in Chi I have to have a B-class mooring which involves all that has been said about exposure, long row (dinghy outboard essential), etc. The irony was that the week after I bought the Achilles, a broker rang to say that the owner of an Anderson that I'd seen had finally seen sense and would accept my offer. Too late.

Years ago, a friend had a Leisure 20. I sailed on it quite a bit. It went well downwind, and was huge inside, But to windward - start the engine.

A Hunter Duette (bilge keeled Sonata, with increased ballast ratio) would tick all the boxes, but is more expensive.
 
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I can highly recommend a Pandora Mark one, It has been nothing but safe and fun to sail. The other day we got caught in 3.5m swells and she was fine in it.

But then I may be biased as I have just done up my little beauties :)

PMK1
 
MonniotC said:
When I was seeking an upgrade from an Alacrity, my criteria were much the same as yours, a boat that will sail well, dry out, but with a bit more emphasis on the boat being able to make passages safely in foul weather if necessary, but mainly used for day (or two) sailing based on a drying mooring in Chi harbour. My shortlist came down to Anderson 22, Triple-keel Achilles 24, Hurley 22, Seal 22, Pandora, Sonata lift-keel, Prelude.

I really wanted an Anderson 22, but couldn't find a sensibly priced one at the time, so I ended up with an Achilles 24. I must say she fits the bill perfectly. I got caught out in a near-gale, crossing to Cherbourg the year before last, and she behaved perfectly. None of that corkscrewing round as you surf down the front of a wave, with the tiller under your chin, shouting "Come round you B'stard". Could've been on train tracks. I was so impressed that the following lunchtime we set off back to Chi with an F7 on the nose. Punching into sodding great waves on a close reach with a double-reefed main and a small jib she sailed like a dream, sometimes exceeding hull-speed, and that's with a 12 inch 3-bladed fixed prop. The only downside is that she draws 1 metre, so in Chi I have to have a B-class mooring which involves all that has been said about exposure, long row (dinghy outboard essential), etc. The irony was that the week after I bought the Achilles, a broker rang to say that the owner of an Anderson that I'd seen had finally seen sense and would accept my offer. Too late.

Years ago, a friend had a Leisure 20. I sailed on it quite a bit. It went well downwind, and was huge inside, But to windward - start the engine.

A Hunter Duette (bilge keeled Sonata, with increased ballast ratio) would tick all the boxes, but is more expensive.
Click to expand...


Hi Chris, thanks for your post. And indeed all the other contributions. It's all helpful, particularly this sort of thing: "But to windward - start the engine." - just the sort of real-world experience I need to hear about. I think that for some people, the mere fact that a boat is capable of being propelled by its sails means that "it sails well". But coming from many years of sailing performance dinghies I really can't be doing with lacklustre windward performance. Probably the best thing to do is to contact the various owners associations, and see if it's possible to have a go on members' boats. I think I will create another post as I have a question about furling foresails vis-a-vis pointing ability, but to put it here would probably dilute the conversations. Any more observerations and thoughts on small-ish boats that sail well will be gratefully received.

Thanks to all.
 
Re: Sailing well, a hearty recommendation for any boat designed by Oliver Lee (Squib, Hunter Europa, Anderson 22, Achilles 24) - my little Europa has really impressed me and punches well above her weight... I hardly ever use my engine... One completed the RTIR last week (85th over all)
 
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