Skipper's Qualifications Abroad

[silver-fox]

There has been much debate in recent years about the need for skippers qualifications when cruising abroad.

For many years I have toyed with the idea of doing my yachtmaster or similar but never got round to it.

Until recently I saw no need, but we live in an increasingly bureaucratic world and, despite never having been asked for any form of proof of competence, I decided to take the path of least resistance and get my ICC (International Certificate of Competence).

What finally pushed me over the edge was Axa insurance refusing to insure me (travel insurance) when sailing unless I was either qualified or had a qualified skipper on board. When pressed for what qualification was required, I received the answer "the minimum that will satisfy the authorities in your country of residence". They would not accept that no qualification was required in the UK. So catch 22 there!

So this summer I did my ICC in Malta and 2 weeks later I was asked to produce my skippers papers along with insurance and boats papers for the 1st time in my life. At this stage I didn't have the ICC paperwork in my possession and was at first both refused access to the local marina and the vignette that would allow me to cruise in Croation waters. I managed to produce acceptable electronic evidence and all was quickly sorted out.

Let me make it clear that the point of my tale is not in anyway critical of Croatia, we have to abide by the laws of the countries we visit

My point is simply that the days of cruising without skippers papers are rapidly drawing to a close

 

[Neeves]

Move to Australia. For a sailing yacht you need no qualifications at all. However to enter a marina you do need the minimum of 3rd party insurance for the vessel (I think its either $5 or $10 million), but to date I have never been refused entry without the paperwork (we have full insurance). The insurance companies make no stipulation on competence. (and many of our insurance companies are the same as those common in Europe). Contradictorily you do need a licence to use a vessel with an engine, I think bigger than 2hp - so the tender - so unless you want to row the license is required and its easy to obtain. Again I've never been asked to show mine, I do have one. There does not appear to be any restriction for those wishing to bareboat charter, say in the Whitsundays or Sydney harbour, - so to protect the charter industry - no licences required.

Jonathan

Jonathan

 

[Tranona]

That is true of the UK. no licence for either power or sail. Insurance compulsory in most marinas and clubs, but enforcement, particularly for visitors is low key - perhaps because uninsured boaters are not a big issue.

Different in Europe where most states have some form of licencing, particularly for power boats plus restrictions on where you can use boats depending on such things as size, licence, equipment.

The ICC is an attempt to establish an internationally acceptable minimum licence standard which is issued by states to their citizens (or in some cases residents) who either hold an appropriate state recognised qualification or following a dedicated assessment against the competence standards (which are pretty basic). Australia issues the ICC.

As the OP suggests it is becoming more common for states to ask visitors for a licence, particularly for chartering, but like many of these things enforcement is often down to local officials who have more power than we are used to in common law countries!

For UK boaters who cruise abroad the subject is very well covered by advice on the RYA website.

 

[Neeves]

Yes, the ICC is available here - and the market (afaik) is really for those who want to charter in the Med. We also have the RYA courses, I'm not sure - other than personal satisfaction (or working toward a career in the industry) what the target market is.

Jonathan

 

[Mistroma]

I have to agree that need for documentation will only increase, that's a fact of life. However, I don't think the need to produce them will increase rapidly in many places. I've never been asked to produce a licence but I suppose it will eventually happen at some point. I doubt many of those asking to see documentation know what they are looking at.

Every time somebody shows their SSR to policia, aduanas, marina etc. they ask for port of registry. That's because their own boats have a port of registry. I doubt they'd blink if told it was Rugby, Birmingham or some other equally well known coastal resort.

 

[srm]

ICC seems to be a mainly European certificate.
A couple of years ago at the Toronto Boat Show there was a high profile move to get boat users certified with the Canadian Pleasure Craft Operating Card. (PCOC) as it had become a legal requirement in the lakes. It is very basic.
I went to the Maritime Canada stand and asked if they accepted the ICC. No one had heard of it. However, for foreign registered vessels they would accept whatever certification the registration state required. When I pointed out that the UK has no certification requirement I was told that would be acceptable.

 

[alant]

There has been much debate in recent years about the need for skippers qualifications when cruising abroad.

For many years I have toyed with the idea of doing my yachtmaster or similar but never got round to it.

Until recently I saw no need, but we live in an increasingly bureaucratic world and, despite never having been asked for any form of proof of competence, I decided to take the path of least resistance and get my ICC (International Certificate of Competence).

What finally pushed me over the edge was Axa insurance refusing to insure me (travel insurance) when sailing unless I was either qualified or had a qualified skipper on board. When pressed for what qualification was required, I received the answer "the minimum that will satisfy the authorities in your country of residence". They would not accept that no qualification was required in the UK. So catch 22 there!

So this summer I did my ICC in Malta and 2 weeks later I was asked to produce my skippers papers along with insurance and boats papers for the 1st time in my life. At this stage I didn't have the ICC paperwork in my possession and was at first both refused access to the local marina and the vignette that would allow me to cruise in Croation waters. I managed to produce acceptable electronic evidence and all was quickly sorted out.

Let me make it clear that the point of my tale is not in anyway critical of Croatia, we have to abide by the laws of the countries we visit

My point is simply that the days of cruising without skippers papers are rapidly drawing to a close

Working in Denmark a few years ago, got checked by their equivalent of MCA. They were unhappy with 'Yachtmaster', but ok with 'Day Skipper, since yachtmaster seemed a leisure qualification specific to yachts. Again in Norway, they were not happy that a yachtmaster (comm end) allowed me to drive the survey vessel (within tonnage/length levels & British flagged), because at that time my stcw 95 hadn't been added as not a requirement in UK.
Foreign countries seem to like lots of paperwork, especially with your photo on it.

 

[Tranona]

ICC seems to be a mainly European certificate.

That is because its origins are European, originally for the CEVNI inland waterways. However t is actually a UK initiative, although after an initial bout of enthusiasm very few states have actually signed up formally. It has therefore ended up as still mainly European and mostly restricted to CEVNI waterways and the charter trade.

 

[AndrewB]

The only time in recent years I was asked to produce evidence of qualification was by the Border Protection Service in Grays Harbor, Washington. They looked very dubiously at my RYA Yachtmaster certificate. "Does that include a US Coastguard approved safety course?" Err .... no, why would it.

They let me go after they found "UK" wouldn't work on their electronic form, and had to put "AK" instead. So now I live in Dover, England, Alaska.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Here's an quote from http://www.jimbsail.info/going-foreign/docs-and-VAT:

Certificates of Competence
Many countries expect visiting vessel captains to be licensed, and some ask for a certificate of competence on entry or before chartering. Also, after an incident, authorities may not permit you to leave port until your competence is proven. Without a certificate, this may mean a delay and expense of taking a local practical test, costing perhaps a couple of hundred euro.

:nonchalance: An 'International Certificate of Competence' (ICC) issued by the Royal Yachting Association is accepted as proof throughout Europe.
:nonchalance: National certificates are also accepted, but it's useful to carry an interpretation of key phrases into the local language.

All those statements are supported by first hand reports.

The whole page covers a lot more - it's the basis for several short talks on regulations which I give on behalf of the Cruising Association. I'm just updating the page for winter talks. Next performance in "the theatre" at LBS at 16:00 on Wednesday 13th Jan (I know, fat lot of use for live-aboards!)

Up-dated downloads on all this stuff will be available by registering with the CA stand at the show . . .

 

[emmalina]

Always carry a good printer on board as certain countries ask for papers that don't actually exist
I have found the ICC more than enough though.....:encouragement:

 

[laika]

That is true of the UK. no licence for either power or sail. Insurance compulsory in most marinas and clubs, but enforcement, particularly for visitors is low key - perhaps because uninsured boaters are not a big issue.

I'd never been asked to show my insurance details until this year (after I'd been berthed with Premier for about 9 months). The request to present my paperwork seemed rather secondary to the blurb the sent with it promoting Premier's own insurance. I wasn't left with the impression that their reason for asking was to ensure their other bertholders weren't at risk from the uninsured.

 

[Tranona]

I'd never been asked to show my insurance details until this year (after I'd been berthed with Premier for about 9 months). The request to present my paperwork seemed rather secondary to the blurb the sent with it promoting Premier's own insurance. I wasn't left with the impression that their reason for asking was to ensure their other bertholders weren't at risk from the uninsured.

Think that is pretty standard, but your contract will have as a condition that you carry third party insurance. Same with our club marina and moorings.

 

[capnsensible]

I'd never been asked to show my insurance details until this year (after I'd been berthed with Premier for about 9 months). The request to present my paperwork seemed rather secondary to the blurb the sent with it promoting Premier's own insurance. I wasn't left with the impression that their reason for asking was to ensure their other bertholders weren't at risk from the uninsured.

I've been fortunate in sailing to have cleared in and out of mebbe 30 odd countries, some of them many times. Rarely asked for any Skipper qualification but Always, always Insurance.

Lots of places you sail to, to get Insurance... guess what!!! Yup, what qualification do you have to sail that boat??

No point dripping, it's what happens. Early in my sailing career I decided to get assessed in my ability to skipper yachts. Endex problem.

:encouragement:

 

[laika]

Think that is pretty standard, but your contract will have as a condition that you carry third party insurance.

Acknowledged and it's a very reasonably condition which I happily comply with. My point, which was a thread drift from the original question, was that the only time that I have been asked for paperwork wasn't *really* to check that I had said paperwork but to fish for business on assumption that I might not have it (although I did, along with the qualifications which I don't need for the Uk

 

[alant]

I've been fortunate in sailing to have cleared in and out of mebbe 30 odd countries, some of them many times. Rarely asked for any Skipper qualification but Always, always Insurance.

Lots of places you sail to, to get Insurance... guess what!!! Yup, what qualification do you have to sail that boat??

No point dripping, it's what happens. Early in my sailing career I decided to get assessed in my ability to skipper yachts. Endex problem.

:encouragement:

Until any rules are deemed to have been broken, or other vessels of a close encounter variety.

 

[GHA]

I've been fortunate in sailing to have cleared in and out of mebbe 30 odd countries, some of them many times. Rarely asked for any Skipper qualification but Always, always Insurance.

I can't recall of any country asking for insurance, Marinas almost always but checking in with customs / immigration when anchored .. - don't think it's ever been required, or any kind of license. usually passport., boat reg and zarpe. Will have at least an icc before heading off again, just in case someone asks....

 

[duncan99210]

I can't recall of any country asking for insurance, Marinas almost always but checking in with customs / immigration when anchored .. - don't think it's ever been required, or any kind of license. usually passport., boat reg and zarpe. Will have at least an icc before heading off again, just in case someone asks....

The only place where we've encountered officialdom is Greece, where you need to produce your registration document and proof of insurance, preferably in Greek, before they'll issue you with a DEPKA. Otherwise, as said, it's the marina that wants the insurance document.
Never been asked for my ICC but there's bound to be a day when I manage to upset someone official who will then demand to see every bit of paper he might imagine I should be carrying.....

 

[Sandyman]

I can't recall of any country asking for insurance, Marinas almost always but checking in with customs / immigration when anchored .. - don't think it's ever been required, or any kind of license. usually passport., boat reg and zarpe. Will have at least an icc before heading off again, just in case someone asks....

Good move. We had a visit here in Faro this summer & I was asked to produce my ICC.
Said to the cop that it was the first time I had ever been asked to produce it.
He told me that from now on it was standard practice as all Policia Maritimos had been instructed to check ICC's.
I asked him what would happen if you didn't have one. He said ''You don't go anywhere''.
So I guess bureaucracy & red-tape is increasing & there ain't a lot you can do about it except shut up & put up.

 

[vyv_cox]

I have been asked to produce my ICC in Belgium, France, Spain, Italy and Greece. In Belgium well over 10 years ago I was asked to produce every imaginable piece of paper, including my VHF and operators' licence, the only occasion except, bizarrely, in Northern Ireland about 20 years ago. Most of the others have been in marinas or ports but I have needed to produce ICC several times to port police in Greece. Greece port police are totally unpredictable, consequently we take a folder containing everything and sometimes need it, even down to receipted proof of overwintering in the previous year.

As said, nowadays insurance is asked for almost everywhere. In the past few days I have been asked to send a copy of my renewed insurance to Leros, where the boat is wintered.