Single handed MOB drill

[lw395]

Why "grossly flawed"?
Have you tried it?
capnsensible has said that he, probably as experienced as any on here, teaches it & has used this method on many boats without any flaws, so must be some merit in it. You comment upon how difficult it would be to haul in a mainsheet to centre boom, yet seem happy that the same person could furl a headsail & drop the main, at the same time as sending a mayday & starting engine, all this from an inexperienced female in a panic situation.
You mention "stop the boat 'if possible'", how?
"Attempt to meet casualty at danbuoy", how?
When your female crewmember is doing all this, do you really think she will be eyeballing the danbuoy at all times?
A danbuoy is not the easiest to spot, unless a flat Solent seascape & she will be disorientated, not knowing in which direction to look. The "very simple drill", eliminates all that precisely because it is a "very simple drill".

Yes I've tried it.
On some boats it goes to rats as soon as the small female tries sheeting in the big mainsail.
If you have to drop the helm to do that, you could be straight into an uncontrolled gybe.

Tacking onto a hove to position seems to work well on most boats.

My danbuoy puts a watt of LED light 5ft above sea level.
That's very much easier to spot than a person in the dark.

 

[lw395]

I totally agree keep it as simple as possible even the normal figure of 8 maneuver would be very difficult/imposable when single handing as you cannot concentrate on steering the boat and keep an eye on the MOB at the same time.

Which reinforces the imperative to get the danbuoy out immediately.
We have a proper oldschool RORC type where the danbuoy complete with horseshoe and drogue can be launched from the helm in seconds.

On a small boat, simply tacking to hove-to works very well.

Top tips have to be:
Try different methods on your own boat,
Teach your crew to handle the boat,
Don't fall in!

 

[rogerthebodger]

I agree with "don't fall in" that is why my life lined are at crutch level and are solid tube not just wire.

 

[Elessar]

The priority after incident is locating the casualty and marking spot if possible. The next step is starting move towards casualty. By definition MAYDAY being third item is thus not the priority. Its importance is also variable unlike the other two items. Not much use if 60 miles off coast as no one will hear you. Not much use if rescue services cant get there in time to save life. Very useful in Solent when lots of boats about and RNLI at hand. Probably variable in Greek Islands.

For the OP like the rest of us, the real priority is to prevent the incident

I fundamentally don’t agree. Mayday = joint first. Can you not multitask?

Reminds me some wise words earlier (can’t remember who said it) suggested setting off a plb or epirb if it’s too hectic to make a VHF call. Or press the button and do the words when you have time. But shout “help” somehow.

 

[lw395]

I fundamentally don’t agree. Mayday = joint first. Can you not multitask?

We can argue about priorities in terms of both urgency and importance.
Anything you don't do could turn out to be joint first in importance.
IMHO, getting the danbuoy out to mark the spot should take seconds.
A mayday call will take a minute or more.
Delaying the mayday by a few seconds will make very little difference.
Getting the danbuoy and horseshoe over the side is a lot more useful before taking a minute for the mayday.
It's possibly pointless after a DSC mayday?

 

[capnsensible]

6004 after todays excercises. Carry on arguin dudes.

Smiley.

 

[Elessar]

We can argue about priorities in terms of both urgency and importance.
Anything you don't do could turn out to be joint first in importance.
IMHO, getting the danbuoy out to mark the spot should take seconds.
A mayday call will take a minute or more.
Delaying the mayday by a few seconds will make very little difference.
Getting the danbuoy and horseshoe over the side is a lot more useful before taking a minute for the mayday.
It's possibly pointless after a DSC mayday?

I never suggested delaying anything. That would be silly. Taking a minute out would be preposterous.
This is single handed MOB remember. Ie with people of limited sailing ability.
My instructions to people unfamiliar with the boat and boating are “if I fall in stop the boat” (easy for me of course), “press and hold this red button and do as the man says. “
Anything else they manage is a bonus.
If your guests can’t stop the boat - quite likely for non sailors as you lot can’t agree about it - then it’s even more critical that the first thing they did was press that red button.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

6004 after todays excercises. Carry on arguin dudes. Smiley.

Mr sensible. Did any of your 6004 excercises represent inexperience solo crew member doing it on her own without assistance? If not they may not be appropriate to the OPs crew.


Do you read Marine Accident Investigation Reports and Air Accident Incident Reports regularly to see not only how accident occur but more importantly to see what factors prevent situation recovery?

Did you ever do formal incident analysis with a committee?

Did you ever consider with a committee how a safety procedure might be improved? Did this include MOB? Much has changed in the last 45 years, mostly for the better.

If yes to all these then you truly are the expert and the rest of us will shut up. If not then you might just might be being a tiny bit complacent and still need to learn like the rest of us

 

[lw395]

I never suggested delaying anything. That would be silly. Taking a minute out would be preposterous.
This is single handed MOB remember. Ie with people of limited sailing ability.
My instructions to people unfamiliar with the boat and boating are “if I fall in stop the boat” (easy for me of course), “press and hold this red button and do as the man says. “
Anything else they manage is a bonus.
If your guests can’t stop the boat - quite likely for non sailors as you lot can’t agree about it - then it’s even more critical that the first thing they did was press that red button.

All makes sense.
But the last 'Mayday' I overheard, the conversation took what seemed to me to be a Very Long Time.
Food for thought.

 

[Elessar]

All makes sense.
But the last 'Mayday' I overheard, the conversation took what seemed to me to be a Very Long Time.
Food for thought.

Just press the button. 5 seconds for 1 of your hands. Do the rest if you have time/know how.
Not ideal but better that nothing and an easy instruction to give people who don’t know boats in case you fall in.
Others have made the don’t fall in point which is even more important!!

 

[rogerthebodger]

Press the button.

Do consider where you are sailing as not all locations have DSC VHF coverage and not all locations in the world have VHF operator with a good command of English.

I do sail in an area with not good VHF coverage and countries where English is not a commonly spoken.

 

[jwilson]

Mr sensible. Did any of your 6004 excercises represent inexperience solo crew member doing it on her own without assistance?

I concur. Put someone on their own after a week's Competent Crew and I can't think of anything more calculated to add to the stress than hanging on to a boat circling quite rapidly close to the loved one she knows she ought to be trying to save. Get floating gear over, then sails at least mostly down/furled and engine on.

If VHF at helm hold down DSC button and say man overboard, the value of this depends a lot on where you are: as others have said in the Solent or Carrick Roads in summer it could be the first action and you could well have help in minutes, in other places it could be a lot longer.

And for those who say "just heave to", many modern boats need quite skilled persuasion to do it reliably and stably - a fairly exact combination of headsail backing, perhaps slightly furled, plus the right amount of mainsheet. On typical AWBs it's not like on many older boats.

 

[Elessar]

Do consider where you are sailing as not all locations have DSC VHF coverage and not all locations in the world have VHF operator with a good command of English.

I do sail in an area with not good VHF coverage and countries where English is not a commonly spoken.

Good point. If that’s the case I’d tell them to set off the epirb instead. But the instruction would still be “press the button”.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Good point. If that’s the case I’d tell them to set off the epirb instead. But the instruction would still be “press the button”.

My instructions are
1) Throw dan buoy/life ring.
2) Helm turned in opposite direction as boom.
3) Press red button on helm radio mic.
4) try to locate dan buoy and get boat to sail around MOB to get close within the trailing line

 

[lw395]

Just press the button. 5 seconds for 1 of your hands. Do the rest if you have time/know how.
Not ideal but better that nothing and an easy instruction to give people who don’t know boats in case you fall in.
Others have made the don’t fall in point which is even more important!!

I agree.
I'd add time spent teaching one's guests the basics of handling the boat, particularly a sailing boat, is always rewarding and might make a difference one day.
I spent a couple of days with a couple of absolute beginners aboard earlier in the year. By the end of it, I reckon they'd have been good to get within 'Seattle Sling' range even if I wouldn't expect them to pick up a mooring first go.

 

[pcatterall]

Lots of useful debate and pros and cons have been discussed so perhaps we should return to the OPs question. He is starting to sail with his partner who is a novice but ( hopefully ) they will continue to sail together. In this case they will, jointly, have an interest in safety issues and be willing to spend time considering and practicing 'what if ' situations. ( could make it into a bit of fun?)They will also be aware of the local conditions ( warm water...expected DSC response etc) and can determine the best I.A in those conditions.
This is a different scenario from one when the 'on board' crew has no interest in sailing and would be unable to do very much practically ( except press the button!!)

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Lots of useful debate and pros and cons have been discussed so perhaps we should return to the OPs question. He is starting to sail with his partner who is a novice but ( hopefully ) they will continue to sail together. In this case they will, jointly, have an interest in safety issues and be willing to spend time considering and practicing 'what if ' situations. ( could make it into a bit of fun?)They will also be aware of the local conditions ( warm water...expected DSC response etc) and can determine the best I.A in those conditions.
This is a different scenario from one when the 'on board' crew has no interest in sailing and would be unable to do very much practically ( except press the button!!)

I think there is a very serious point that partners may simply not be strong enough to manage the boat alone. My wife is small and petite and, like me, into her 7th decade! I remarked elsewhere that she would struggle even to furl the genoa in challenging conditions, and she certainly couldn't do it quickly; she'd probably have to use a winch to haul the furling line in, and of course, furling systems aren't fool-proof; if we didn't keep tension on the furling line when setting the sail, we could potentially end up with a riding turn on the drum. Easy enough for me to deal with if she can steer while I go forward, but on her own? Dropping the mainsail, as I remarked earlier, is not straightforward; it often needs to be hauled down at the mast, despite the track being lubricated with a PTFE/molybdenum spray! The best she could do is probably a crash tack, which I have tried and know works, and press the big red button - we have a command mike in the cockpit handy for the tiller. Throw the Dan buoy and anything else that floats over as well. Anything beyond that is a bonus!

For all these reasons, we are completely focussed on not going overboard!

 

[rogerthebodger]

I think there is a very serious point that partners may simply not be strong enough to manage the boat alone. My wife is small and petite and, like me, into her 7th decade! I remarked elsewhere that she would struggle even to furl the genoa in challenging conditions, and she certainly couldn't do it quickly; she'd probably have to use a winch to haul the furling line in, and of course, furling systems aren't fool-proof; if we didn't keep tension on the furling line when setting the sail, we could potentially end up with a riding turn on the drum. Easy enough for me to deal with if she can steer while I go forward, but on her own? Dropping the mainsail, as I remarked earlier, is not straightforward; it often needs to be hauled down at the mast, despite the track being lubricated with a PTFE/molybdenum spray! The best she could do is probably a crash tack, which I have tried and know works, and press the big red button - we have a command mike in the cockpit handy for the tiller. Throw the Dan buoy and anything else that floats over as well. Anything beyond that is a bonus!

For all these reasons, we are completely focussed on not going overboard!

I could not agree more. To me ignoring the sails make it easy but it does depend on how the boat handles

 

[geem]

My take on MOB, assuming one person left onboard. Assuming a boat speed of 7 kts, fairly typical of out boat. In 10seconds we move 118ft. Assume a nice F5 as is normal for our cruising ground. Any head in the water at 118ft away is hard as hell to spot between waves. Assuming the person onboard is going to stop the boat or gybe of heave to or what ever before 10seconds is unlikely. They may be down below making a cuppa. They may be sat in the cockpit but 10s goes rapidly.
For me the single most important thing is to mark the position that the MOB happened. God knows what issues the person left onboard may have to deal with. But if the position of the MOB is known then you know where to go to start a search. Our drill is to hit the MOB button on the cockpit plotter first. The second thing is our cockpit bean bags go over the side. They are full of polystyrene beans and we have reflective tape all over them. They don't need unclipping from a bracket or removing from a bag, they simply get lobbed over the side from the cockpit. They have a large strap on them so you can grab them easily. They float high in the water and are far easier to spot than a human head. The person left on board has the choice to drop the sails and motor to the MOB or gybe and sail back. My preference would be to drop the sails. It provides better visibility when searching and accurate manoeuvring along side an MOB. Assuming the person left onboard to carryout the MOB rescue can keep an eye on the MOB is not realistic. You cant do anything on the boat and also stare at the MOB at the same time.

 

[capnsensible]

Mr sensible. Did any of your 6004 excercises represent inexperience solo crew member doing it on her own without assistance? If not they may not be appropriate to the OPs crew.


Do you read Marine Accident Investigation Reports and Air Accident Incident Reports regularly to see not only how accident occur but more importantly to see what factors prevent situation recovery?

Did you ever do formal incident analysis with a committee?

Did you ever consider with a committee how a safety procedure might be improved? Did this include MOB? Much has changed in the last 45 years, mostly for the better.

If yes to all these then you truly are the expert and the rest of us will shut up. If not then you might just might be being a tiny bit complacent and still need to learn like the rest of us

Got me bang to rights then

Yes Ive taught dozens of couples how to do mob with the least experienced person on board doing the drill.

Yes I read MAIB reports regularly Im a pro sailor.

Yes Ive bern involved in Incident reporting as a witness and a writer. I was in the Submarine Service for many years so have written dozens of technical reports.

And if some one with big experience in a topic offers me advice I will listen and learn without getting arsey.

And its 6008 after a pleasant day with one day skipper and three competent crew students here on the sunny algarve.

I hope that answers your loaded questions.

Smiley.