Should you have to qualify to skipper a boat in the UK?

[No Regrets]

Speaking as a River user (Very different to Coastal or even Estuary work I accept) I can only say that piloting a modest leisure boat is similar to driving a car at speed on wet roads.

It requires attention, care, forward planning and sensible reactions, but isn't really a lot more difficult.

£3,000,000 worth of insurance isn't expensive either, my Birchwood has an agreed minimum value of £13,500 on a Fully comp basis for around £250.
If it catches fire, and torches the Marina, or I maim somebody in a freak accident, I wouldn't want NOT to be covered.

As for a licence, well is there a problem that exists that a licencing situation would fix?

I'm unaware of one!

 

[Kawasaki]

Good Post, well said Jules.
No we don't want compulsary training.
We do need to help Newbies.
The Boating Industry needs to take the Lead.
Dealers, not all but a lot more than used to are providing something akin to PB2 or PB2 itself for New Customers.
Peeps like experienced Forum members can offer to help newbies.
I have Myself for many years.
In fact because I found it so enjoyable I became an RYA Instructor.
2 reasons-- Didn't know if I was really showing newbies the ropes properly, thought it may sharpen My boat handling etc as well.
We need to fix what might be Legislation don't want , "In House" somehow.
The freedom We have on the Water is Precious.

So lets keep our own House in order as best We can.
Tother thing.
Shut up about it.
Making a noise like this and Some Git will notice we don't need a Licence.
Kindly Delet the Post Someone /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Sshhh! the Barstewards haven't noticed yet.

 

[hlb]

I was self tought for about ten years. Wales Irland Scotland, whatever.

Then went on a Dazed Kipper course. 26 weeks.

In week two or three I learned about the different phrases from front end to arse end. It carried on to secondary ports. Any half wit, would have a pilot book or at least an almanac. They all tell you the depth you can expect.

Dunno what the twats are trying to teach, less to the enthe degree. Range 4/5 meteres, so just anchor in 6, No probs, no pissing about . It's all about making a mount hill out of a mole hill.Excuse.

 

[Observer]

[ QUOTE ]
<snip>I m not convinced there needs to be a problem to solve before proposing a law.

[/ QUOTE ]

<boggle> Well - just as I said. That is (unhappily) exactly the muddled thinking that has led to the mess this country is in. We're micro-managed and regulated to the nth degree because the hard-of-thinking believe "there ought to be a law against it". <Sigh>

Doesn't "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mean anything to you? Do you not see the vicious circle of "more lawmaking - more law breaking - more lawmaking" that allows politicians and civil servants to waste our taxes inventing new laws and building empires in order to justify and perpetuate their existence. The more laws there are, the more they will be broken (whether by malicious intent, ignorance or happenstance); and the more laws are broken the more the politicians and bureaucrats will seek to justify new laws and regulations to "elimate the criminal behaviour". Doesn't the example of Brussels mean anything to you?

 

[Observer]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a thread I have just read that clearly indicates why there should be compulsory training...

In this thread the poster has a boat, wants to do what is right and sensible (otherwise he wouldn't have posted his question), clearly isn't just a yob (or else he wouldn't care what damage or harm he did by not doing it right). He just needs a bit of training.

Had it been a requirement for him to get the training BEFORE going out in his boat then he probably would have done it.

Fortunately, he has not come to any harm, he is getting good help and advice from the forum now and all is well but it may not have turned out that way and doesn't for many others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Evidence please. Who are these "many others"who have been damaged by these dangerous lunatics who buy a small boat and start to learn, just by experience and a bit of trial and error, how to use it? Surely the MAIB would have shelves groaning with weighty investigation reports into such incidents of reckless, foolhardy behaviour.

What is your proposal, in detail please, for an effective, practicable, affordable system of "compulsory training" (which obviously has to go hand in hand with compulsory licensing)? Who would police and enforce it? What would be the penalties for non-compliance? How many deaths, injuries and other losses would it be reasonably sure to prevent?

 

[gjgm]

no muddled thinking here, but rather alot of generalisation on your behalf, methinks.

 

[Observer]

[ QUOTE ]
no muddled thinking here, but rather alot of generalisation on your behalf, methinks.

[/ QUOTE ]

The proposition that rule-makers should spend their time devising and implementing additional codes of bahaviour that are not "necessary" is so bizarre that "muddled thinking" seems a rather charitable description.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Remember, the Government (and EU) thinks all boaters are:

1. rich
2. not natural Labour voters/EU supporters anyway

The combination of these will not be financially favourable in any licencing/compulsory training regime. For those who don't beleive me think red diesel. For thise who find the idea of a compulsory document being anything but a notional charge laughable think passport/ID card.

 

[Dave_Snelson]

Good points here.

On the one hand, compulsory students would force business your way but on the other hand, would you want that kind of student. Hmmm

I guess people just hate being "Nannied" into anything /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Searush]

Horses for courses springs to mind.

Some people find it hard to learn for themselves, They find it difficult to think ahead/ plan a trip or envisage potential problems - whatever the trip (hill walk, trip to new city, holiday overseas, or sea passage). Such people enjoy flotilla Charter, package holidays, training courses & guided tours.

For me & my family these things are anathema. We plan for ourselves, whether is is a foreign holiday, a car tour, open sea passage or a trip to a new city. We were lucky in that I had many years dinghy sailing on the sea & swimming in & living by the sea. We were also used to camping & caravanning so it was logical to put the two together and try a charter. We chose sheltered water and scenic surroundings (Falmouth area) for our first taste. When the family enjoyed it I was prepared to invest in a small yacht & gainn experience. I took no formal courses but did borrow an RYA distance learning package from the locaql library. I was surprised how basic & straightforward it was.

I read a lot of books but have never felt the need for any training courses.

One final comment, it was mentioned earlier that new boats sales are sometimes linked to training courses, but that only covers a tiny fraction of the market. Local Harbourmasters & RNLI have told me that the worst "don't know, don't care" sailors are the guys who buy a cheap sport/ski boat on a trailer with a big engine, tow it to the sea & set off without life jackets, anchor, vhf, flares or even spare fuel/ oars, tools etc. They often have no understanding of tides, charts or even sandbanks! They are nicknamed "the Birmingham Navy" and often do need rescueing. How do you reach them before they become a statistic?

 

[SnaxMuppet]

There is plenty of evidence if you want to see it. It is absolutely everywhere when I am out on the water... everywhere. Almost every trip I see what could be newbie behavior that has the potential to cause injuries or worse!

I needed go much past my own experience with a broken foot, sprained ankle and severe laserations caused by someone driving their motor boat too fast past my moored boat trapping my feet tween boat and quay! Was that a yob or someone who was just starting out and didn't know any better? Don't know but it could be either but if the second then some basic training on the do's and don't of boating may have saved my injury. I am certain that these kinds of incidents happen all the time but clearly they do not end up in front of the MAIB.

This is not the place for detailed proposals and I don't intend to pamper to your demands for them. However, I am sure you know what I mean if you want to give it some serious consideration yourself... basic safety and etiquette, 2 days perhaps, no licence necessary as certificate at end... all pretty much the same as PB2. Policing isn't necessary... no licence... but it does give a clear message to newcomers that basic training is not optional in the eyes of most.

I have to say that many of the responses on this topic indicate a certain amount of dogma. Difficult to argue against that because people are then blind to any good ideas... pity.

 

[rickp]

[ QUOTE ]
I needed go much past my own experience with a broken foot, sprained ankle and severe laserations caused by someone driving their motor boat too fast past my moored boat trapping my feet tween boat and quay!

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on. First thing we were taught on our course was never get between boat and quay as the boat is replaceable whereas arms, ankles, hands etc aren't

Perhaps you need a refresher course?

Rick

 

[SnaxMuppet]

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Yeh! Right...

Someone else making accusations without knowing any of the facts... I give up!

 

[RogerRat]

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I must admit to that crossing my mind too... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Sorry Paul, just struck me as funny. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[nicho]

[ QUOTE ]


I have been having an ongoing debate over here with a Spanish 'colleague' who cant believe you can use a boat in the UK without a licence or any training.

[/ QUOTE ]

....and frankly, neither can I. I fly planes, and to do so I had to undergo a long process of learning (some 60 hours in total), followed by a very strenuous 3 hour skills test with a CAA examiner. I also had to sit seven exams.

I drive a car of course, and (many years ago) had to have lessons and pass a test before I was allowed onto the roads.

Why on earth should it be different for boat owners?? As it stands, a lottery winner can splash out £millions on a 60', 30 ton new boat, and simply steam off with no experience (or insurance) whatsoever - do you really want to share the same bit of water with someone like that??

I know of someone who has just bought his first ever boat (a 60' flybridge boat), who has not a clue even what a chart looks like, let alone the rules of the road, bouyage etc - not a single clue at all - yet he wants to take it to the Channel Islands!!

I really cannot see the problem with some kind of compulsory training - someone please enlighten me as to the reasons so many object.

 

[rickp]

[ QUOTE ]
I really cannot see the problem with some kind of compulsory training - someone please enlighten me as to the reasons so many object.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain, given the low rates of accidents and deaths, why you should need compulsory training for boating?

Given that the current system seems to work, why should it change?

Legislate to fix problems, don't legislate for the sake of it.

Rick

 

[rickp]

[ QUOTE ]
As it stands, a lottery winner can splash out £millions on a 60', 30 ton new boat, and simply steam off with no experience (or insurance) whatsoever - do you really want to share the same bit of water with someone like that??

[/ QUOTE ]

And lets put this one to bed too. You've splashed your lottery win and got your 60footer, now you need to get insurance to be able to put it in the water in a marina or harbour (as I believe all of them set some level of insurance). Find me an insurance company who will insure this boat with a novice skipper please.

Does this really happen? Lets have some real instances please, rather than theoretical (non) problems.

Rick

 

[nicho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As it stands, a lottery winner can splash out £millions on a 60', 30 ton new boat, and simply steam off with no experience (or insurance) whatsoever - do you really want to share the same bit of water with someone like that??

[/ QUOTE ]

Find me an insurance company who will insure this boat with a novice skipper please.
Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

Well in this case somebody has - don't know who though.

Sure, the lotttery winner example is a bit extreme. However, I do also know someone who a few yaers ago, bought a Princess 40 as his first ever boat. Had no idea what he was doing, refused any kind of training, but somehow managed to get it from the Solent to Torquay. On the way back he hit "massive waves" - smashed the crockery, damaged the boat, and injured his children. Turns out he set off with F6 forecast (didn't bother to check before departure), and hit some rather big seas just 1/2 mile or so off a place he hadn't heard of called Portland Bill!! "So what exactly are overfalls" he asked. family refused to go out again, and the boat was sold soon after.

Sorry Rick, but that's irresponsible, and could have been avoided with a bit of compulsory tuition. Still can't see the problem.......have another go!!

 

[rickp]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry Rick, but that's irresponsible, and could have been avoided with a bit of compulsory tuition. Still can't see the problem.......have another go!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly you think compulsory training would help someone like that, but I disagree. Stupid people are stupid I'm afraid. Out of interest, did they have a VHF licence and VHF ship licence (both of which are compulsory and hardly ever checked)?

You've still failed to provide statistics that the level of incidents or deaths suggest training is required. Try again.

Rick

 

[nicho]

We're obviously not going to agree on this one Rick.......!!

Cheers

Mike N